1967 RB 440 - TDC finding issue

[Todd Peterson]

My 1967 Chrysler New Yorker with the RB 440 engine is giving me difficulty with its ignition. I have installed new plugs and wires - and no, unfortunately I did not use the "one-at-a-time plug wire" method, which I now regret. The biggest challenge has been re-finding #1 cylinder TDC - I am aware if the firing order and the CCW distributor rotation. I have done the "finger on the plug hole" method. I have gone to the point of taking off the valve cover to see the status of the valves on #1 cylinder, have tried "bump-starting" with the starter to try to get the crankshaft pointer lined up - but the starter always bumps past the timing marks on #1 cylinder. I even used a bore scope to see if #1 cylinder is OK.

What this boils down to, is there a SAFE way to manually turn over a RB 440? Another post said it rotates clockwise. The drive pulley in front of the harmonic balancer looks deep, and I cannot "feel" the crank bolt. Maybe I have gone to the point of overkill with this - I just want to do it right. Previous owner told me the timing chain was replaced in past. And the car was converted to Chrysler Electronic Ignition circa 1970 at some point. Am I missing something obvious? I think I've done all my due diligence to this point. The car ran and drove before I forgot to mark #1 on the distributor..

 

[413]

Yes the crankshaft rotates clockwise and distributor is CCW.

Run it with the starter until is just starts blowing compression out the #1 spark plug hole. Now turn the crank one of 2 ways.
1) 1 1/4” head on the crank bolt. Then you can turn it with a socket on a breaker bar. Is your car AC or not? Pulley is deeper and closer to fan with AC.
2) Or you can take off the torque converter dust shield and turn it with the torque converter bolts with a 9/16” box wrench.

 

[CBODY67]

If you have not done so, head over to www.mymopar.com and download a 1967 model year factory service manual. Free download. In there, there should be an illustration of the distributor cap and which spark plug wires go where.

Luckily, the RB distributor can only go in one of two ways. Correct of 180 degrees out. On the bottom of the distributor is a straight piece which indexes with a slot in the distributor drive, so it either works or it doesn't.

In the firing order, #1 and #6 fire 180 degrees away from each other, for reference. Although precision is important, if you get pretty close to the TDC timing mark on the damper, then check to see which way the rotor is aimed, you can get a decent idea if things are correct, according to the service manual illustrations.

Bumping the engine with the starter can be troublesome, as you have discovered. Whether using a larger screwdriver to short the terminals on the starter relay or using a pushbutton remote start item.

There is a "TDC finder whistle" I saw in another forum, with a YouTube video linked to it. As the cyl approaches TDC, it whistles, but as soon as the piston moves away from TDC, it stops.

Did the engine run when you started your changes? Were there any performance issues you were seeking to address with your maintenance activities? There were many electronic ignition kits out in the earlier 1970s, do you know which one is on the car?

I understand the desire to want to do everything "by the book" and related concerns. I suspect many of us were that way, initially. I also understand the "over-kill" or "over-thinking" orientations, too.

It's good the timing chain has already been replaced. One less thing to be concerned with.

Keep us posted on your progress, please.
CBODY67

 

[Davea Lux]

The harmonic balancer has a slot cut in the side of it, the timing mark. Assuming the engine was properly reassembled, the distributor rotor should point to #1 with the mark lined up on TDC on the timing cover. It is also possible to be 180 degrees out of time as the crank makes two rotations for each camshaft rotation. As noted use the socket and breaker bar to get the proper orientation. I find it easier to mark the damper with some white chalk on the slot for easy viewing Having a helper underneath to move the breaker bar while you verify the alignment the will make the job easier. Putting a screw in type compression tester on #1 will verify that the cylinder is at the proper location as there will be an increase in compression at TDC. There will be no compression if the engine is 180 degrees out of time.

Dave

 

[Todd Peterson]

If you have not done so, head over to www.mymopar.com and download a 1967 model year factory service manual. Free download. In there, there should be an illustration of the distributor cap and which spark plug wires go where.

Luckily, the RB distributor can only go in one of two ways. Correct of 180 degrees out. On the bottom of the distributor is a straight piece which indexes with a slot in the distributor drive, so it either works or it doesn't.

In the firing order, #1 and #6 fire 180 degrees away from each other, for reference. Although precision is important, if you get pretty close to the TDC timing mark on the damper, then check to see which way the rotor is aimed, you can get a decent idea if things are correct, according to the service manual illustrations.

Bumping the engine with the starter can be troublesome, as you have discovered. Whether using a larger screwdriver to short the terminals on the starter relay or using a pushbutton remote start item.

There is a "TDC finder whistle" I saw in another forum, with a YouTube video linked to it. As the cyl approaches TDC, it whistles, but as soon as the piston moves away from TDC, it stops.

Did the engine run when you started your changes? Were there any performance issues you were seeking to address with your maintenance activities? There were many electronic ignition kits out in the earlier 1970s, do you know which one is on the car?

I understand the desire to want to do everything "by the book" and related concerns. I suspect many of us were that way, initially. I also understand the "over-kill" or "over-thinking" orientations, too.

It's good the timing chain has already been replaced. One less thing to be concerned with.

Keep us posted on your progress, please.
CBODY67

I actually am blessed to have an original copy of the 1967 factory service manual. And I really appreciate the thoroughness of your advice! The electronic ignition is actually 1970 Chrysler OEM according to the previous owner. The issue I was combating before plugs/wires was occasional misfires that I presumed would be consistent with faulty plugs or wires. I actually observed arcing at #1 plug boot when it was running. I had tried replacing just that one wire but there were still misfires. It has a brand new carburetor now too, which improved things a lot. The factory manual does not show the crank bolt, just explains how to remove it... I have a remote starter button but haven't been able to attach it to the starter relay - all its wires are shrouded in plastic. (see photo attached). I am trying to find a way to safely, mechanically crank the engine without the starter...

 

[Todd Peterson]

The harmonic balancer has a slot cut in the side of it, the timing mark. Assuming the engine was properly reassembled, the distributor rotor should point to #1 with the mark lined up on TDC on the timing cover. It is also possible to be 180 degrees out of time as the crank makes two rotations for each camshaft rotation. As noted use the socket and breaker bar to get the proper orientation. I find it easier to mark the damper with some white chalk on the slot for easy viewing Having a helper underneath to move the breaker bar while you verify the alignment the will make the job easier. Putting a screw in type compression tester on #1 will verify that the cylinder is at the proper location as there will be an increase in compression at TDC. There will be no compression if the engine is 180 degrees out of time.

Dave

Agreed. I have the valve cover off to prevent timing on split overlap. I need to look more thoroughly at the drive pulley attached in front of the harmonic balancer to try to see the crank bolt - the drive pulley is so deep I couldn't feel it. I'll be honest I didn't think of using a compression tester for this, I haven't found mine so I will need to get one. Thank you for your help!

 

[65Port]

Based on what you've given us, how about trying to start without #1 plug wire hooked up and see what it does? You can also grab the belts and turn the motor if need be. Won't be easy but it can be done. This is not the worst way to see how much play is in the chain as well. I have done it this way.

And you are sure the plug wires are going to the right plugs? You stated you regretted not doing one at a time. Smallest details can burn us. You also mentioned occasional misfire. Do you have good ground to engine and body?

Seeing that it ran, something must have been done incorrectly to create the current situation. Did you move/remove the distributor? Are you sure the cap is on all the way? Again, stupid sh*t can bury us when we are looking at a simple problem. Has happened to me countless times. And don't get me started on how bad NEW parts have burnt me when troubleshooting.. : ) Good luck

 

[Todd Peterson]

Based on what you've given us, how about trying to start without #1 plug wire hooked up and see what it does? You can also grab the belts and turn the motor if need be. Won't be easy but it can be done. This is not the worst way to see how much play is in the chain as well. I have done it this way.

And you are sure the plug wires are going to the right plugs? You stated you regretted not doing one at a time. Smallest details can burn us. You also mentioned occasional misfire. Do you have good ground to engine and body?

Seeing that it ran, something must have been done incorrectly to create the current situation. Did you move/remove the distributor? Are you sure the cap is on all the way? Again, stupid sh*t can bury us when we are looking at a simple problem. Has happened to me countless times. And don't get me started on how bad NEW parts have burnt me when troubleshooting.. : ) Good luck

I do as of now have a good ground to the engine. I had to take off the old negative cable to get the valve cover off (because of the A/C compressor bracket interference) so I have put a new one on. As for firing order, yes - I rechecked them with a helper so I had two pairs of eyes. I still think I'm getting stuck on not getting TDC. I did tap-crank the engine with #1 plug out while my helper felt for the 'poof' but the starter always moves it way past #1 TDC.

 

[65Port]

I did tap-crank the engine with #1 plug out while my helper felt for the 'poof' but the starter always moves it way past #1 TDC.

I'd say that is close enough to see where the rotor was pointing. It has to at least be in the ballpark. Was the rotor anywhere near #1? Was the distributor touched at all?

 

[Todd Peterson]

Yes the crankshaft rotates clockwise and distributor is CCW.

Run it with the starter until is just starts blowing compression out the #1 spark plug hole. Now turn the crank one of 2 ways.
1) 1 1/4” head on the crank bolt. Then you can turn it with a socket on a breaker bar. Is your car AC or not? Pulley is deeper and closer to fan with AC.
2) Or you can take off the torque converter dust shield and turn it with the torque converter bolts with a 9/16” box wrench.

My car is A/C so yes the pulley is really deep and also close to the fan. I'm gonna try the 1 1/4" crank bolt next. I have an unheated garage and it's 35 degrees now so it may be a bit before I do... LOL

 

[Blusmbl]

For your remote starter trigger- you disconnect the small yellow wire, and then put one alligator clip for the trigger on that terminal, and the other on the larger starter lug with the nut on it above - be sure not to touch them as if they make contact to each other at all it will start cranking.

 

[Todd Peterson]

I'd say that is close enough to see where the rotor was pointing. It has to at least be in the ballpark. Was the rotor anywhere near #1? Was the distributor touched at all?

It was in the ballpark, yes. Close to where #8 would be. The distributor was not moved, but I may need to move it - when I get to what is 'near' #1 cylinder, the rotor is not pointing to where Chrysler's diagram above says #1 should be, just left of the cap clip that is opposite the vacuum advance unit, appears to be closer to #8.

 

[Todd Peterson]

For your remote starter trigger- you disconnect the small yellow wire, and then put one alligator clip for the trigger on that terminal, and the other on the larger starter lug with the nut on it above - be sure not to touch them as if they make contact to each other at all it will start cranking.

View attachment 629618

Just confirming, presuming the harmonic balancer is correctly in place, the balancer mark will be TDC of compression stroke? The hole is 0 degrees correct?

 

[halifaxhops]

Remember also the balancer can slip and the notch can move also.

 

[Blusmbl]

Just confirming, presuming the harmonic balancer is correctly in place, the balancer mark will be TDC of compression stroke? The hole is 0 degrees correct?

It can be either TDC of the compression OR exhaust stroke. Like mentioned, it will be 0* provided the balancer hub hasn't slipped - this occasionally happens.

 

[CBODY67]

Thanks for the reply and information. At the present time, will the engine start and run? Does it start reasonably quickly or does it crank for a good while, trying to start and then finally does?

Other than spark plug wire arcing, what other performance issues were present? Was the base ignition timing checked before any work was started?

Where is the ignition base timing now set? Without all of the desired verifications?

Yes, with time, the outer ring on the harmonic balancer can more from its original relationship to the center hub. Mainly due to the rubber sandwiched between those two getting more dried-out, but when that happens, the outer ring will usually move rearward, which will be obvious.

In order to make the manually turning of the crankshaft easier, it might help to get the cooling fan and related fan clutch out of the way by removing them. Maybe the fan shroud, too.

In looming the plug wires, it can be easy to mistake #5 and #7 plug wires. They fire consecutively. If crossed the engine will still start and idle nicely, but have zilch power. Years ago, a customer called and wanted me to check out a '78 Newport of one of his elderly customers. The car was immaculately clean and looked new with only about 30K miles on it. He handed me the keys and told me to drive it. It started quickly and idled smooth, but when normal throttle was applied, it was extremely lazy. I eased it around the neighborhood until it was up to operating temperature. At a stop sign, with my foot on the brake, I torqued the engine against the brake and then floored it when I let of the foot brake. It just oooozzed away from the stop sign. THEN, still at WOT, as soon as the rpm got past about 2500rpm or so, it was like the afterburner had been activated. I could easily repeat these things, too. I was perplexed.

The backstory was that the lady's grandson had recently change the plug wires. Apparently as he considered them to be old and needed replacement for some reason. My customer then pondered that as that's when the issue started, to check the plug wire routing against the firing order (cast into the intake manifold). When he did, he discovered that #5 and #7 were swapped, so putting them back right cured the whole mess.

I'm wondering if there might be some electronic reason for the misfires and such?

Take care,
CBODY67

 

[CBODY67]

One other point of reference, for which the complete crank pulley assy will need to be removed for, when #1 piston is at TDC, firing, the keyway in the nose of the crankshaft (which the balancer indexes with when installed) should be pointing at the centerline of the piston pin (#1 cyl) and parallel to the centerline of #1 connecting rod. With the engine assembled, you can visualize this, as the keyway will be basically at 2:00 o'clock position. THEN, you can check the location of the timing mark on the balancer against the timing tab on the front of the engine.

With the engine in the car and everything assembled, let's go in a bit of reverse order. Get the engine started and see where the #1 plug currently "fires" with a timing light. If the engine will not start, can the distributor be rotated a small bit to get the engine to run smoothly and start easier? If you have a dwell tach, what "dwell" reading is on the meter. Yes, I fully know that a dwell reading on an electronic ignition is not what it is on a point ignition system, but on our '72 Newport 400 2bbl, my meter showed about "40" at idle. Might not amount to a hill of beans, but it might indicate an electronic issue rather than a mechanical one?

Now, I know that every bit of literature claims such a dwell reading is "inaccurate", but it seems to me that if the dwell period has to be the same, no matter whether mechanical or electronic, then it might be used as a diagnostic tool rather than not. Perhaps it is considered to be "inaccurate" is because it is non-adjustable? Now, 40 degrees of dwell with a point system is very close to what the old dual-point distributors would produce, for a hotter spark. Which might be another benefit of the Chry electronic system, with a consistent "hotter spark" to make things work better, just that nobody wanted to acknowledge that?

Sorry for the length. Please continue to keep us advised of what is discovered.
CBODY67

 

[Todd Peterson]

Thanks for the reply and information. At the present time, will the engine start and run? Does it start reasonably quickly or does it crank for a good while, trying to start and then finally does?

Other than spark plug wire arcing, what other performance issues were present? Was the base ignition timing checked before any work was started?

Where is the ignition base timing now set? Without all of the desired verifications?

Yes, with time, the outer ring on the harmonic balancer can more from its original relationship to the center hub. Mainly due to the rubber sandwiched between those two getting more dried-out, but when that happens, the outer ring will usually move rearward, which will be obvious.

In order to make the manually turning of the crankshaft easier, it might help to get the cooling fan and related fan clutch out of the way by removing them. Maybe the fan shroud, too.

In looming the plug wires, it can be easy to mistake #5 and #7 plug wires. They fire consecutively. If crossed the engine will still start and idle nicely, but have zilch power. Years ago, a customer called and wanted me to check out a '78 Newport of one of his elderly customers. The car was immaculately clean and looked new with only about 30K miles on it. He handed me the keys and told me to drive it. It started quickly and idled smooth, but when normal throttle was applied, it was extremely lazy. I eased it around the neighborhood until it was up to operating temperature. At a stop sign, with my foot on the brake, I torqued the engine against the brake and then floored it when I let of the foot brake. It just oooozzed away from the stop sign. THEN, still at WOT, as soon as the rpm got past about 2500rpm or so, it was like the afterburner had been activated. I could easily repeat these things, too. I was perplexed.

The backstory was that the lady's grandson had recently change the plug wires. Apparently as he considered them to be old and needed replacement for some reason. My customer then pondered that as that's when the issue started, to check the plug wire routing against the firing order (cast into the intake manifold). When he did, he discovered that #5 and #7 were swapped, so putting them back right cured the whole mess.

I'm wondering if there might be some electronic reason for the misfires and such?

Take care,
CBODY67

How I became aware I had a problem after replacing the spark plug wires, when I tried to start it, It cranked over for several seconds and then a backfire. Thinking maybe it was flooded, I repeated cranking, and again ended with a fireball backfire. I started to presume I somehow got to split overlap, so started the whole diagnostic process I am now in. It ran OK prior to the replacements. What I really need to do first is get everything to TDC on #1 cylinder and go from there. I'm almost certain the wiring is correct - 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 counterclockwise. I am afraid to keep backfiring so as not to hurt the engine. By the way, #1 cylinder was very clean inside, almost too clean. I may end up trying removing the fan to turn the engine easier.

 

[Todd Peterson]

This is what the engine bay looked like before I started work. Previous owner had blue tape with numbers on the wires - however, the numbers were wrong.

 

[3175375]

Keep it simple. Find #1 TDC. Make sure that the distributor is pointing to #1 and wire up the rest. It should fire straight away.
If it doesn’t fire right away, you may have the engine 180 degrees out. If you’re unsure, pull the valve cover and verify that the #1 cylinder valves are closed.