Non-starter

[Fishfan]

Hi guys,

You guys are always wealth of information so I thought I'd bring my problem to you.

1966 Dodge Polara 318
MSD Electronic Ignition

Background
2 months ago I moved two blocks from my office. I sold my daily driver last week and am using the Polara exclusively for transportation.

Sunday I drove the car to a car club meet-up. Toward the end it started to drizzle. I closed trunk instantly, started up the car and left. Rained all the way home. It's been raining a lot the last few days in South Florida (not as much as in poor Houston) and I had driven the car in the rain on Friday and Saturday. Parked it at my office's underground garage. Yesterday (Sunday) I tried to start the car and no dice.

Symptoms
Starter motor is working. Engine is turning. Feels like no spark or no fuel to spark. I have one of those clear fuel filters and there's definitely fuel in the line. Plus I had driven the car less than 24 hours before.

Possible fixes
Before I had the electronic ignition, on cold starts it would take a lot of cranking to get enough fuel to the carb to start. To avoid excess wear and tear on starter I began spraying a shot of starter fluid in the carb. I tried that this time and nothing. Makes me think it's something electrical.

When I first got the car in 2004 and had the points ignition once it didn't start because of moisture. So I removed the distributor cap to check for moisture in this case (because of the aforementioned wet conditions). Dry as a bone.

Next I thought ballast resistor. I've never in 13 years of ownership changed it. Maybe one of the mechanics had at some point, but not me personally. I keep a spare and installed it. No dice.

Next I'm thinking voltage regulator. Could this be it? What else could it be? What diagnostic tools to I need to make sure current is getting where it needs to go?

I've been in touch with my mechanics and they are going to try to come over after they close the shop tonight. But if it's something I can handle, I'd rather do it that way.

 

[OneEyed]

Verify spark.

 

[Davea Lux]

Hi guys,

You guys are always wealth of information so I thought I'd bring my problem to you.

1966 Dodge Polara 318
MSD Electronic Ignition

Background
2 months ago I moved two blocks from my office. I sold my daily driver last week and am using the Polara exclusively for transportation.

Sunday I drove the car to a car club meet-up. Toward the end it started to drizzle. I closed trunk instantly, started up the car and left. Rained all the way home. It's been raining a lot the last few days in South Florida (not as much as in poor Houston) and I had driven the car in the rain on Friday and Saturday. Parked it at my office's underground garage. Yesterday (Sunday) I tried to start the car and no dice.

Symptoms
Starter motor is working. Engine is turning. Feels like no spark or no fuel to spark. I have one of those clear fuel filters and there's definitely fuel in the line. Plus I had driven the car less than 24 hours before.

Possible fixes
Before I had the electronic ignition, on cold starts it would take a lot of cranking to get enough fuel to the carb to start. To avoid excess wear and tear on starter I began spraying a shot of starter fluid in the carb. I tried that this time and nothing. Makes me think it's something electrical.

When I first got the car in 2004 and had the points ignition once it didn't start because of moisture. So I removed the distributor cap to check for moisture in this case (because of the aforementioned wet conditions). Dry as a bone.

Next I thought ballast resistor. I've never in 13 years of ownership changed it. Maybe one of the mechanics had at some point, but not me personally. I keep a spare and installed it. No dice.

Next I'm thinking voltage regulator. Could this be it? What else could it be? What diagnostic tools to I need to make sure current is getting where it needs to go?

I've been in touch with my mechanics and they are going to try to come over after they close the shop tonight. But if it's something I can handle, I'd rather do it that way.

As one eye said above, pull the coil wire from the distributor cap and be sure you have spark. If you do not have spark first test your coil to be sure it is not dead. Do this by unhooking the distributor lead from the coil, Turn the key on and ground out the distributor side of the coil, you should get a spark. If you can not get spark this way the coil is most likely dead. Verify that you have power to the coil, if there is no power, you have a problem in the ignition switch or in the wiring someplace. If there is power to the coil and it fires, most likely either the electronic control module is bad or the pickup components in the distributor have failed. Check to be sure that there is power to the control module, if there is power at the module, test to see of the distributor is providing a ground to the coil. Do this by disconnecting the distributor lead from the coil. Attach a continuity tester to the coil and the disconnected distributor lead. As the vehicle is cranked over you should get a complete circuit every time the distributor attempts to fire the coil. If you do not get a completed circuit the pickup component has failed or it is not getting signal from the control unit. You will need to check the operating specs for your module to verify what voltage should be on each of the wires to the distributor to verify that it is working. Also be certain that the electronic control module has a clean ground, this is essential for it to operate properly.

Hope this helps

Dave

 

[Yatzee]

Hi guys,

You guys are always wealth of information so I thought I'd bring my problem to you.

1966 Dodge Polara 318
MSD Electronic Ignition

Background
2 months ago I moved two blocks from my office. I sold my daily driver last week and am using the Polara exclusively for transportation.

Sunday I drove the car to a car club meet-up. Toward the end it started to drizzle. I closed trunk instantly, started up the car and left. Rained all the way home. It's been raining a lot the last few days in South Florida (not as much as in poor Houston) and I had driven the car in the rain on Friday and Saturday. Parked it at my office's underground garage. Yesterday (Sunday) I tried to start the car and no dice.

Symptoms
Starter motor is working. Engine is turning. Feels like no spark or no fuel to spark. I have one of those clear fuel filters and there's definitely fuel in the line. Plus I had driven the car less than 24 hours before.

Possible fixes
Before I had the electronic ignition, on cold starts it would take a lot of cranking to get enough fuel to the carb to start. To avoid excess wear and tear on starter I began spraying a shot of starter fluid in the carb. I tried that this time and nothing. Makes me think it's something electrical.

When I first got the car in 2004 and had the points ignition once it didn't start because of moisture. So I removed the distributor cap to check for moisture in this case (because of the aforementioned wet conditions). Dry as a bone.

Next I thought ballast resistor. I've never in 13 years of ownership changed it. Maybe one of the mechanics had at some point, but not me personally. I keep a spare and installed it. No dice.

Next I'm thinking voltage regulator. Could this be it? What else could it be? What diagnostic tools to I need to make sure current is getting where it needs to go?

I've been in touch with my mechanics and they are going to try to come over after they close the shop tonight. But if it's something I can handle, I'd rather do it that way.

There's quite a few things you can do to diagnose the issue but there's also a lot of components to check like the MSD unit, coil, wires etc and pickup in the distributor. Most require a VOM meter, patience, knowledge and confidence. I'll go out on a limb on this one and say the culprit is moisture somewhere or everywhere. You did drive it in the rain after all. Looking at a clear plastic filter for fuel isn't the same as observing the carb squirters while rotating the linkage and nothing will disable a car from firing like moisture when it come to poor ignition wires. I'd pull #1 spark wire to verify if there is spark. Beyond that, if you're unsure and don't have a lot of time (this is your daily driver, right?) let the pro's have a go at it because that's what they do everyday and probably your fastest way to get back on the road. I'm not advocating someone else fixing your ride but there are many factors you need to consider usually refered to as "a day of discovery" and sometimes it's nice to have someone else held accountable. On the other hand, if you got lots of time, there's no time like the present to learn something new regardless of cost.

 

[Fishfan]

Thanks guys. I used a spark tester and no spark. Still, working on it when I have breaks at work. Last night I couldn't do anything because it was my twins' birthday and had a family get-together to celebrate.

 

[CBODY67]

Make SURE the battery is at FULL CHARGE! The "box" takes has a minimum voltage requirement BEFORE it will fire the plugs. Not sure what the min voltage is on the MSD box you have, but the Chrysler Orange Box takes 12 Volts to fire the plugs. I was at a weekend cruise event several years ago, we'd driven a short distance to the place. When we got ready to leave, a 440 car was next to us . . . and it would not fire, with the beloved Orange box. It turned over fast enough to have fired off on any other car, but didn't. When a pair of jumper cables were attached to another car, it fired instantly and ran fine.

ONE advantage of points is that as long as the points will spark, the spark plug will spark, even if the engine just barely turns over. ALL electronic boxes have their own minimum voltage to work, which might be as low as 5 volts, but not as high as the Orange Box.

Charge the battery, clean the terminals on the battery and cables, and if it ran enough to get where you went, it should run again.

Please advise.

CBODY67

 

[Fishfan]

Battery is at 12.7V

 

[Polara_500]

Have you watched what battery voltage goes to while cranking?

 

[Fishfan]

Have you watched what battery voltage goes to while cranking?

No. What should I be looking for?

 

[Fishfan]

Update:

My MSD distributor is an all-in-one unit. No separate "box".

I took the MSD Blaster coil that was in the car off and bench tested it with my multimeter.
Primary resistance .9 Ohms (MSD website says it should be .7)

MSD 8222 High Vibration Blaster Coil - MSD Performance Products

Secondary resistance 6.06k Ohms (MSD website says it should be 4.5k)

Don't know how the higher secondary resistance would affect the spark.

I replaced the coil with a new one from Advance Auto Parts (BWD E30P) because they didn't have any MSD coils in stock. I assume that distributor was made to be used with one of their coils. Is it possible that problem was the MSD coil and it's not going to be resolved with the stock coil because of different specs?

I replaced the ignition switch.

By now I should have called the Hagerty towing service but here’s my problem. The car is in an underground garage. The flatbed won’t clear the ceilings and pipes. It would be possible to push the car to the garage exit (several hundred yards away) and position it at the bottom of the ramp and have it hauled up with the cable from the flatbed. I’ve had to do this operation before with a MINI Cooper and it’s a bear. Trying to avoid that but will do it if I have to.

 

[Fishfan]

As one eye said above, pull the coil wire from the distributor cap and be sure you have spark. If you do not have spark first test your coil to be sure it is not dead. Do this by unhooking the distributor lead from the coil, Turn the key on and ground out the distributor side of the coil, you should get a spark.

I'm not the most mechanically inclined. How exactly am I checking for spark when I pull the coil wire from the distributor cap?

On the second part, I'm disconnecting the leads on the positive side of the coil, turning the key and then using a jumper wire to connect the positive side of the coil to ground and hoping I get a spark?

 

[Davea Lux]

I'm not the most mechanically inclined. How exactly am I checking for spark when I pull the coil wire from the distributor cap?

On the second part, I'm disconnecting the leads on the positive side of the coil, turning the key and then using a jumper wire to connect the positive side of the coil to ground and hoping I get a spark?

Assuming you have verified that there is power to the coil when the key is on, when you ground out the distributor side of the coil, you should get a spark each time you move the jumper to ground. If you move the lead from the center of the coil (ie the spark lead) to where it is close to a ground 1/8'' or so you should be able to see the spark from the coil wire when you ground out the distributor side of the coil. Do not hold onto the spark lead when you run this test!

Dave

 

[saylor]

i never had an MSD anything but i thought you had to use their coil with their box no?

the interwebs says oreallys has em in stock for fiddy bucks.

try not to die -

- saylor

 

[Davea Lux]

i never had an MSD anything but i thought you had to use their coil with their box no?

the interwebs says oreallys has em in stock for fiddy bucks.

try not to die -

- saylor

He has not determined if the coil is the problem. On a car that is rarely driven, I would probably consider converting it back to points rather than spend fifty bucks on one of their coils for the simple reason that a point system is much easier to diagnose and repair.

Dave

 

[CBODY67]

I highly suspect the resistance in the coil relates ONLY to the ultimate coil output, not to keep it from starting. As long as there is continuity in it. A 50KV rated coil will only put out the voltage it needs to fire the plug, which will be less that 50KV. IF it needs 50KV to spark in a very highly compressed cylinder mixture, then it'll produce 50KV, but ONLY if it has to.

Might need to invest in a quality "jump box" to add some power to the existing charging system?

CBODY67

 

[Fishfan]

The problem was the MSD Distributor. Was under warranty. Summit sent a new one out free of charge and the guys at my shop installed it free of charge. Was a hassle getting it out of the underground garage but all's well that ends well.