Cooling issue '65 New Yorker

[Scoopy G]

Hello C-body folks. I need a fan shroud for my '65 new Yorker. It didn't come with one when I bought it. Does anyone know of a used unit I could buy, or is there a new unit out there?

Everything was fine until I installed an aftermarket AC system. SO, I had the factory radiator re-cored, but that didn't cut the mustard. THEN, I bought an aluminum radiator unit from Engineered Cooling Products, and overall things have been OK. BUT, with the stop/go of Tampa traffic and the long traffic lights and the blistering heat, the HOT light comes on sometimes; the car has not overheated, but I'd like to be sure it won't.

I bought a shroud at a swap meet, but it turned out to be from an A-body. I offered that shroud for free on the A-body forum if the recipient would just pay for shipping; I trusted the guy and sent the shroud, but he never paid. But I digress.

Any suggestions for a shroud for my '65 NYer with 413? I much appreciate any helpful input.

Richard in Tampa.

 

[413]

Are you using the aluminum radiator right now? A factory shroud may not work on those.

 

[James Romano]

It most likely won't be any better than that aluminum radiator. Did you buy the one with a shroud? If anything, dump the original fan and add in the correct fan set with that radiator...

Without asking, I think it's this one because the 26" is not for our year car (I have a '65 Fury). 22" Mopar BIG BLOCK HD Aluminum Radiator - Dual Fans And Aluminum Shro
Maybe call back and ask if they would send you the shroud and fan package separately?

Sorry to say that factory shrouds are hard to come by unless someone is repopping them now. I went through this a few years ago. My fix was to add a high-flow water pump, flush out the system several times, add in a 50/50 blend of distilled water and Mopar rated anti-freeze. I use a 195, but maybe in Florida a 180 would do better because of the heat.

Bottom line, these engines do run hot in the heat. Mine gets a little iffy in traffic in August and September as well.

Hopefully some of the other guys have better advice, because if someone is making shrouds, I'm considering that route. In the mean time... what do you think of the radiator you bought? I was looking at those a few weeks ago.

 

[CBODY67]

What constitutes a "high flow" water pump?

As to "flow", there is a "window" of flow rates for BEST heat absorption by the coolant. To fast, not enough heat removed. To slow, strains the radiator to get it all removed before the cooland makes another pass in the engine block.

The factory a/c cars had a 6-vane impeller water pump. The non factory a/c cars had a 8-vane water pump. What IS different is the drive ratios! The 6-vane drive ratio turns the pump faster for a given engine rpm. The 8-vane drive ratio is slower.

What I term "creeping heat", where the operating temp slowly creeps up, can happen with accumulations in the rear of the engine block's water passages. That's the lowest part of the block, as installed. Have to knock out the core plugs (on each side of the block) to get that part cleaned out well. Normal flushes will not get to it. Manual removal is the only way, usually.

NOT all aluminum radiators are created equal! Just changing to alloy from copper/brass does NOT automatically ensure better cooling! It is the "efficiency" of the tubes in the core itself. Was the core classified as "high-efficiency"? Meaning more and finer cooling tubes attached to the water tubes. Width of the water tubes can vary, too, even for the same number of "cores". As in two wide cores can be better than three smaller cores for the same total core thickness.

Is the "yoke seal" on the bottom of the hood, to seal the hood against the core support. To ensure that more air goes through the radiator rather than around it.

Just some thoughts and observations,
CBODY67

 

[Scoopy G]

It most likely won't be any better than that aluminum radiator. Did you buy the one with a shroud? If anything, dump the original fan and add in the correct fan set with that radiator...

Without asking, I think it's this one because the 26" is not for our year car (I have a '65 Fury). 22" Mopar BIG BLOCK HD Aluminum Radiator - Dual Fans And Aluminum Shro
Maybe call back and ask if they would send you the shroud and fan package separately?

Sorry to say that factory shrouds are hard to come by unless someone is repopping them now. I went through this a few years ago. My fix was to add a high-flow water pump, flush out the system several times, add in a 50/50 blend of distilled water and Mopar rated anti-freeze. I use a 195, but maybe in Florida a 180 would do better because of the heat.

Bottom line, these engines do run hot in the heat. Mine gets a little iffy in traffic in August and September as well.

Hopefully some of the other guys have better advice, because if someone is making shrouds, I'm considering that route. In the mean time... what do you think of the radiator you bought? I was looking at those a few weeks ago.

Thanks James for your post. My radiator from Engineered Cooling Products had no accessory fans included. When I installed the aftermarket AC (Coldmaster, out of Largo, FL), their kit came with an electric fan.

My NYer has a 22" radiator setup from the factory. As I mentioned, the ECP aluminum unit really helped, but now the car does not like the stop/go driving here in Tampa, to say nothing of the sweltering heat. My '63 Riviera and my '67 Newport have no issues even in the summer down here.

The ECP radiator does pretty well, but the petcock failed last year as I was trying to flush the system. The thing would turn, but would not drain the radiator. A call to the company yielded NO help whatsoever. I removed the petcock, and have a plug in there now. ALSO, I feel the radiator came from a jobber and not the company itself; The fins were a little dinged up, and when I called to complain, they offered me $50 off the price, so I took that. I then meticulously straightened out the dinged-up fins. I guess I need to call them and get a firsthand recommendation for fan shrouds that fit their product.

Thanks to all you gentlemen for you posts and your advice.

Richard in Tampa

 

[James Romano]

What constitutes a "high flow" water pump?

As to "flow", there is a "window" of flow rates for BEST heat absorption by the coolant. To fast, not enough heat removed. To slow, strains the radiator to get it all removed before the cooland makes another pass in the engine block.

The factory a/c cars had a 6-vane impeller water pump. The non factory a/c cars had a 8-vane water pump. What IS different is the drive ratios! The 6-vane drive ratio turns the pump faster for a given engine rpm. The 8-vane drive ratio is slower.

What I term "creeping heat", where the operating temp slowly creeps up, can happen with accumulations in the rear of the engine block's water passages. That's the lowest part of the block, as installed. Have to knock out the core plugs (on each side of the block) to get that part cleaned out well. Normal flushes will not get to it. Manual removal is the only way, usually.

NOT all aluminum radiators are created equal! Just changing to alloy from copper/brass does NOT automatically ensure better cooling! It is the "efficiency" of the tubes in the core itself. Was the core classified as "high-efficiency"? Meaning more and finer cooling tubes attached to the water tubes. Width of the water tubes can vary, too, even for the same number of "cores". As in two wide cores can be better than three smaller cores for the same total core thickness.

Is the "yoke seal" on the bottom of the hood, to seal the hood against the core support. To ensure that more air goes through the radiator rather than around it.

Just some thoughts and observations,
CBODY67

FlowKooler 1679 FlowKooler Hi-Flow Mechanical Water Pumps | Summit Racing

I got mine on sale for half the price when I bought it 5 years ago. Works great when I'm sitting in traffic... is it a fix... I doubt it. I agree there are way more things to consider in cooling than the water pump, but it's definitely a key part of the system. I did a lot more than just change the water pump.

 

[wyrmrider]

I tested cooling for mopar in the 70s and was a zone rep
seal all the openings in the core support
see if you can find a shroud
run a hd fan clutch and a fan with the correct diameter with the most blades (and less pitch) you can find
put in a pusher fan it will make the AC work much better in stop and go less than 28 mph you can control with ac head pressure or temp
put a dam under the core support
do not run a colder than stock thermostat wide open is the same on all see if you can find a Robertshaw sleave type
put in a fin and plate trans cooler with half inch in and out and put in half inch fittings and tubeing you can put in a transdapt adapter and filter
depending on where you live you can bypass the in radiator cooler I do in So Cal and AZ etc If you are in a really cold area or tow I suggest CITG Quatrosy fluid, check out the specs
if rebuilding trans put in a lock up and transgo shift kit
redline water wetter will work with antifreeze/ water combination and does help some

 

[Scoopy G]

Thanks wyrmrider for the excellent suggestions. Tampa weather is very hot this time of year, and traffic is a lot of stop/go. Mostly stop!

 

[Hunny Bunny]

Has the block been flushed?

While a good radiator and water pump are essential, a whole lot of people fail to clean the rust out of motors and that causes them to overheat.

Also, it can cause head gasket failure, and, conversely, head gasket failure can cause it to overheat.

To check if you have either blockages or leakage in the heads, you can 1, do a leak down on your cooling system [its a simple tool easy to get, not more than $30 most places, and can be used for ever], 2, use the color change solution [same thing, its cheap and infinitely reusable].

If you steady see bubbles from the tank with it full, that is the poor person's first tool.

Hard to do while revving up the motor, but when its idling, if it bubbles for a full minute, you have a head gasket problem.

Another potential sign is 'motor mayonnaise' [that ugly whitish creamy crap in the crank case when oil mixes with coolant over many miles]... That is either a crack in the block, or a failed head gasket.

And since cracks in the block typically don't cause overheats [except when all the coolant drains into the oil pan], that is a very much 'worst case scenario' which seldom happens [except on race cars and more often even then, from water freezing in the block than from rods going thru the case].

And finally...

Be sure the thermostat is working [put it into a pot of water with a thermometer and heat it up to the prescribed operating temp (should be stamped on the part)] and that the inlet hose is not crushing in [something seldom seen when idling but will show at higher RPMs] from a failed [rusted] expander spring.

If you can't fix it with a costly new radiator, and a shroud, and a water pump, at least you have a few other items to look into before giving up and wasting money on some shop to find it for you. (~_^)-b

I've had to deal with "all of the above" on many a mopar, but, many non-mopars too.

Some pretty common overheat details a lot of people need to be aware of.

Also best to test before you begin yanking heads off, because... DAMN that's a whole lotta work if its not the cause!

 

[Scoopy G]

Thanks Bunny.

 

[James Romano]

Has the block been flushed?

While a good radiator and water pump are essential, a whole lot of people fail to clean the rust out of motors and that causes them to overheat.

Also, it can cause head gasket failure, and, conversely, head gasket failure can cause it to overheat.

To check if you have either blockages or leakage in the heads, you can 1, do a leak down on your cooling system [its a simple tool easy to get, not more than $30 most places, and can be used for ever], 2, use the color change solution [same thing, its cheap and infinitely reusable].

If you steady see bubbles from the tank with it full, that is the poor person's first tool.

Hard to do while revving up the motor, but when its idling, if it bubbles for a full minute, you have a head gasket problem.

Another potential sign is 'motor mayonnaise' [that ugly whitish creamy crap in the crank case when oil mixes with coolant over many miles]... That is either a crack in the block, or a failed head gasket.

And since cracks in the block typically don't cause overheats [except when all the coolant drains into the oil pan], that is a very much 'worst case scenario' which seldom happens [except on race cars and more often even then, from water freezing in the block than from rods going thru the case].

And finally...

Be sure the thermostat is working [put it into a pot of water with a thermometer and heat it up to the prescribed operating temp (should be stamped on the part)] and that the inlet hose is not crushing in [something seldom seen when idling but will show at higher RPMs] from a failed [rusted] expander spring.

If you can't fix it with a costly new radiator, and a shroud, and a water pump, at least you have a few other items to look into before giving up and wasting money on some shop to find it for you. (~_^)-b

I've had to deal with "all of the above" on many a mopar, but, many non-mopars too.

Some pretty common overheat details a lot of people need to be aware of.

Also best to test before you begin yanking heads off, because... DAMN that's a whole lotta work if its not the cause!

I agree. I did this when I bought my SF. I pretty much have that frame of mind to just tear it all down, clean and inspect and rebuild with new parts if required, or all new gaskets. Some say..."why, that's a waste of money"...but is it? God only knows what was done to the car before we become the new owner. Now I know what was done, because I did it.

I recently replaced my vacuum advance (thank you Halifax Hopper) and found what was there was pinned to the advance plate with a handmade plastic washer and a bent staple. Looking at my car, your never expect to see such poor maintenance decisions because it looks brand new...but paint and polish don't make it new.

Best to take it apart piece by piece and get your eyes, or maybe someone that knows more, in there and see what's going on.

 

[Rustyrodknocker]

If this is still an issue I would start with a pusher fan then a shroud kit . I think everyone who has a chance of running in hot weather should have a pusher, it can be on a manual switch or thermostatic switch and they are available. Manual is probably better but mine is on a temp switch to a relay that at first was always live so it could cool while off like a modern car. But I think draw is too high on my salvage aftermarket fan so now it's keyed power.
I have yet to add a shroud because I want a certain look and fit. My climate is fairly mild but I have got trapped a couple times and the electric fan got me through. But if I lived in Tampa I would buy a kit from summit and run a race style shroud until you find what you like. They are customizable for fit

I don't like getting caught in the heat. Can break a motor quickly and or just be stuck sweltering on the concrete...

 

[Scoopy G]

Thanks Rusty. I have flushed the block, and just yesterday did a thorough flush of the entire system. The coolant was a bit rusty-looking, but nothing extreme.

I do have a pusher fan that I installed when I installed the aftermarket AC system. It is on keyed power. I filled the system yesterday with a 30/70 mixture (30% coolant, 70% water), and added a bottle of Water Wetter.

The shakedown cruise today went mostly OK, but after considerable stop/go driving in 90+ degree Tampa weather, the HOT light did come on a couple of times, but went off when the car got back up to speed. It never boiled over or burped out the overflow tube.

Curiously, I noticed today that my '67 Newport 383 has a 26" radiator, but with a 22" opening in the core support. It has a shroud, and has never had any overheating issues. My NYer has a 22" radiator (non AC car from the factory). I installed an Engineered Cooling Products 2-core aluminum unit.

SO, bottom line seems to be: avoid mid-day traffic in the summer months, and keep looking for a shroud!

Thanks fellas for the input, I appreciate it.

Richie

 

[Rustyrodknocker]

I would be suspect of a light. I the light comes on I would expect to see the reservoir with hot water in it. I like having a gauge. It's nice to know temp in all conditions and get an opportunity to change course before boil over.
My 440 cooled well with my stock radiator the issue it had was a core leak if it was running warm. An actual piss stream.
When it cooled 20 degrees it was water tight.. weirdest thing but I ran it a year like that.
Put in an ebay radiator it's been fantastic.

 

[Rustyrodknocker]

Ac car shroud. Mounts to radiator...

 

[Zaggart]

I'd eventually like to participate in the 4th of July parade around here but have the same stop-and-go temp creep concerns. I couldn't find a shroud either so the last thing on my long list I did was to switch to a 6 blade fan and put one of these universal units on. I used extra rubber washers and it seems to be treating the rad nicely.. And it appears to be cooler than without so far..