Ideas? Thought? 413?

[Christian-440]

My 440 needed a rebuild, while it's apart I'm thinking I'm just going to keep it that way and save up the money to get a few performance parts. I'd like a forged bottom end, cam, maybe heads, that kind of stuff. For now I thought I'd put a 413 I have in the car to keep it moving along, but it's an industrial engine so it has the Weird center dump manifolds to clear angled plugs and a high mount water pump. I can get the water pump issue fixed but I wanted to know if there's any Ideas for the center dump manifolds? Would they clear? Run just manifolds for around the property? I don't really want to swap heads, and I don't have headers...
(Car is a 1966 New Yorker)

Thanks for any ideas or input!

 

[CBODY67]

If one of your orientation is for a forged crank and rods, the 440 has at least the crank already, STANDARD equipment. No need for forged rods unless you are planning "stuff", majorly so.

The basic 413 block will be the same, but can have some differences as to accessory mounts (think power steering pump). I suspect the exh manifolds also share common architecture in how they mount.

Your plan, by observation, sounds good on first saying, but "easier said than done" comes to mind after that.

I have observed over the years that many people want to do "performance builds" (as they are now termed, with a more upscale sounding situation) and end up using lots of more-expensive parts to build more high-rpm power, but can also lose the lower-end torque (which burns the tires) in the process. Lots of chrome too, for the WOW! effect. Each to their own. Those 5000+rpm power figures everybody brags about ONLY happens at that rpm level, not at 2500rpm, where torque is the key player in moving the car.

Personally, I don't want to brag to others what's inside the motor or make it look fast. Chrome adds NO horsepower. I prefer a more incognito look that works and gets the car down the road with little effort, in reasonable quiet. I know that some like and seem to be addicted to giant smokey burnouts, but as the price of tires keeps going up, that's just $$$$ floating away in the air. NOT a real show of power, either.

IF you keep the existing 727 and the stock rear end gears, too much cam can make the engine "soggy" below 3000rpm, with the cruising rpm at 70mph a good bit below that. Staying in the similar duration of the '68 Road Runner 383 /'67 GTX 440 cam (268/284 advertised duration) with a good undercar 2.5" exhaust system, and adding 3.23 gears, can make for a very enjoying combination. Lunati has a "modern factory equivalent" cam in a Summit Racing box that others in here claim to work well, for example.

ONE part of the situation not considered is cyl wall finish. "Plateau Honing" with a modern "MM" ring package can unlock power and efficiency in any engine. Less internal friction and such so more power gets to the flywheel. I found out about the power issue on a Lake Speed, Jr. YT video the other night. Mahle probably has the pistons with the narrower ring package, but watch the compression ratio, so thicker head gaskets might be needed.

I have no knowledge of the Chrysler Industrial engine cyl heads. I suspect their basic architecture is the same as a normal cyl head. It would be hard to justify major changes for such a low-volume market, I suspect. The 1972 Chrysler 440 MH cyl head is different, with its 4 separate exhaust ports. Pictures of what's on the 413 Industrial engine?

Just some thoughts,
CBODY67

 

[Big_John]

IMHO, the easiest way to deal with it is to swap heads. Then you can run existing manifolds and you can use the regular water pump housing too.

You'd have to deal with the thicker balancer though... You may have to figure out pulleys.

I have no knowledge of the Chrysler Industrial engine cyl heads. I suspect their basic architecture is the same as a normal cyl head. It would be hard to justify major changes for such a low-volume market, I suspect. The 1972 Chrysler 440 MH cyl head is different, with its 4 separate exhaust ports. Pictures of what's on the 413 Industrial engine?

The industrial engine is a bit different. The heads have a coolant port in them and the exhaust ports are quite different. Dished pistons that are way down in the hole too.

Here's some pics I found that illustrate this.

Note the thicker rocker arms.

 

[CBODY67]

After my initial posting, I Googled the "Chrysler 413 Industrial" motor and came up with some interesting information and pictures in several forums.

The 413 Industrial motors were about durability, in some cases, a gear-driven reverse rotation camshaft. Smaller exhaust posts and slightly different bolt pattern. The angle plug heads came from an LA-style combustion chamber, rather than just a machining operation on normal B/RB chambers, plus smaller exhaust ports.

Other than the water pump/cyl head interface, the rear of the crank can be different than the aluminum case 727 rear crank flange and dimensions from the rear main seal.

Cams and valve sizes (1.88/1.50) were optimized for low rpm torque. With a 7-ish compression ratio.

Once again illustrating how what might initially look the same, is NOT the same.

End result can be that in order to adapt the 413-3 motor into your car, you will be pretty much rebuilding it in the process. I suspect the distributor would need to stay with the 413-3, too, for good measure. No need to knowingly rebuild TWO motors when you were trying to just get ONE rebuilt, to me. Too much activity and $$$ to get to the same end result!

Enjoy!
CBODY67

 

[Christian-440]

After my initial posting, I Googled the "Chrysler 413 Industrial" motor and came up with some interesting information and pictures in several forums.

The 413 Industrial motors were about durability, in some cases, a gear-driven reverse rotation camshaft. Smaller exhaust posts and slightly different bolt pattern. The angle plug heads came from an LA-style combustion chamber, rather than just a machining operation on normal B/RB chambers, plus smaller exhaust ports.

Other than the water pump/cyl head interface, the rear of the crank can be different than the aluminum case 727 rear crank flange and dimensions from the rear main seal.

Cams and valve sizes (1.88/1.50) were optimized for low rpm torque. With a 7-ish compression ratio.

Once again illustrating how what might initially look the same, is NOT the same.

End result can be that in order to adapt the 413-3 motor into your car, you will be pretty much rebuilding it in the process. I suspect the distributor would need to stay with the 413-3, too, for good measure. No need to knowingly rebuild TWO motors when you were trying to just get ONE rebuilt, to me. Too much activity and $$$ to get to the same end result!

Enjoy!
CBODY67

The 413 is a running candidate with a 727 attached, it wouldn't be going in to drive on the street, just so I can move it around the 40 acre property with less trouble. I was mostly just worried about the exhaust issues being as I can just leave the hood off if that doesn't clear... the motor mounts should be the same, unsure about the pan... if it's too bad I'll just throw the 440 together or maybe see if one of the 400s will run for now...

Thank you for some cool info tho

 

[Dads300]

I don’t think it’ll work even just to yard drive it. The size of the heads and exhaust manifolds would likely preclude it from sitting down without steering box interference. I also doubt the oil pan is even in the same zip code as a car pan. The water pump housing and accessories likely stick out way too far and may interfere with the radiator. You say it has a 727 attached, so that likely means the crank flange is automotive, be it six or 8 bolt.

I think if you wanted to use it, you’d need to swap heads and oil pan at a minimum. Not out of the realm, but it’s extra work.

I have a reman’d 413 industrial long block in my garage and it has an 8 bolt industrial crank flange. My particular engine is likely just a block, connecting rod, and valve train donor should I desire to use it in a vehicle.
Travis..

 

[Christian-440]

I don’t think it’ll work even just to yard drive it. The size of the heads and exhaust manifolds would likely preclude it from sitting down without steering box interference. I also doubt the oil pan is even in the same zip code as a car pan. The water pump housing and accessories likely stick out way too far and may interfere with the radiator. You say it has a 727 attached, so that likely means the crank flange is automotive, be it six or 8 bolt.

I think if you wanted to use it, you’d need to swap heads and oil pan at a minimum. Not out of the realm, but it’s extra work.

I have a reman’d 413 industrial long block in my garage and it has an 8 bolt industrial crank flange. My particular engine is likely just a block, connecting rod, and valve train donor should I desire to use it in a vehicle.
Travis..

Thanks Travis, gave me a little laugh and some thoughts. I'll probably just end up towing the car out of the way for now unless I come up with something else to throw in it.