Rebuild or Replace Holley 4166-1

[Cortez]

So i have the original Holley on my 67 300 Convertible and it is time to get this lady straight. Now its been suggested I rebuild the carb but just as many folks said to update and upgrade my carb. What do you true Mopar men think?

 

[The Horvaths]

If the casting is usable, rebuild the carb. It was put there from the factory for a reason. You can always swap later.

 

[Cortez]

It is in pretty good condition i was told by previous owner it flooded enough to leave him sitting a few times but I've run it quite a bit without incident, well up and down the driveway but not out on the road as of yet.

 

[saforwardlook]

I have been over this subject many times on this site. Just save yourself the misery and wasted money of trying to get that carb rebuilt. Those carburetors were junk a couple years after they were put on a vehicle. The metal used to make them was too cheap, and with not that many heat cycles from use, the castings warped big time. The metering blocks, the float bowls and everything else warped, and it is futile to try to rebuild them. The Carter 4 bbls were so much simpler and inexpensive to build, that Holley scrimped cost wise to submit a competitive bid to have Chrysler use them as a supplier on some of their engines in addition to Carter. I worked in the carburetor lab at Chrysler in those days, and even the Holley representative stationed in house told me to forget about rebuilding my original Holley on my 1970 Chrysler 300, and just gave me a new one instead when I ran into trouble with mine in 1972. Chrysler stopped using Holley 4 bbls in 1972 because of all the problems. Even the Holley 2 bbls that were on the 360 engines in the 1973-4 era had warped air horns that led to many problems as well, and in that case it was mostly due to the fact that the air cleaner rod was threaded into the air horn rather than the carburetor base, causing the air horn to warp upward over time when anyone tightened the air cleaner down just a little bit. Some rebuilders know about his problem and press the air horn to get it flat again when doing a Holley 2 bbl rebuild, and they can be done successfully, for awhile.
I would recommend changing over to a Carter AVS or going with an aftermarket carburetor. Edlebrocks are popular, but I am hearing lately of problems with the current ones more and more - like they are leaning them out more compared to the ones they produced a few years ago and thier lack of bowl vents makes them hard starting in hot weather. The current Holley aftermarket carburetors are actually pretty good carburetors, but the myriad of choices you have with Holley makes it hard to decide which one is best for your application, and they are not cheap either. Good luck.

 

[The Horvaths]

I have been over this subject many times on this site. Just save yourself the misery and wasted money of trying to get that carb rebuilt. Those carburetors were junk a couple years after they were put on a vehicle. The metal used to make them was too cheap, and with not that many heat cycles from use, the castings warped big time. The metering blocks, the float bowls and everything else warped, and it is futile to try to rebuild them. The Carter 4 bbls were so much simpler and inexpensive to build, that Holley scrimped cost wise to submit a competitive bid to have Chrysler use them as a supplier on some of their engines in addition to Carter. I worked in the carburetor lab at Chrysler in those days, and even the Holley representative stationed in house told me to forget about rebuilding my original Holley on my 1970 Chrysler 300, and just gave me a new one instead when I ran into trouble with mine in 1972. Chrysler stopped using Holley 4 bbls in 1972 because of all the problems. Even the Holley 2 bbls that were on the 360 engines in the 1973-4 era had warped air horns that led to many problems as well, and in that case it was mostly due to the fact that the air cleaner rod was threaded into the air horn rather than the carburetor base, causing the air horn to warp upward over time when anyone tightened the air cleaner down just a little bit. Some rebuilders know about his problem and press the air horn to get it flat again when doing a Holley 2 bbl rebuild, and they can be done successfully, for awhile.
I would recommend changing over to a Carter AVS or going with an aftermarket carburetor. Edlebrocks are popular, but I am hearing lately of problems with the current ones more and more - like they are leaning them out more compared to the ones they produced a few years ago and thier lack of bowl vents makes them hard starting in hot weather. The current Holley aftermarket carburetors are actually pretty good carburetors, but the myriad of choices you have with Holley makes it hard to decide which one is best for your application, and they are not cheap either. Good luck.

Just curious. Is there a practical way to tell if the casting etc. has been warped? Also, I thought it was the '70's Holley's that had issues. Were they still cheaply made in '67?

 

[saforwardlook]

Just curious. Is there a practical way to tell if the casting etc. has been warped? Also, I thought it was the '70's Holley's that had issues. Were they still cheaply made in '67?

67s were no better unfortunately. The warping of the fuel bowls is pretty obvious and maybe fixable for awhile, but it is difficult to see what is going on inside those intricate metering blocks. I honestly felt the Holley 4 bbls ran a little better than the Carters when new, but not for long. I thought Holley made poor design choices when so many gaskets are on a vertical plane whereas the Carter's gaskets were on a horizontal plane where they were much less susceptible to leaking, and the accelerator pump diaphragms were pretty flimsy in the Holley's as well, leading to engine compartment fires when they started giving way, leaking all over the hot engines.

 

[BeatersRus]

pretty obvious saforwardlook knows whats up.
everything he just said we went thru too bitd.
the holley guy literally Would toss you a new carb instead of touching the one that just crapped out.

btw,this prompts me to ask you if you are familiar w thermoquads and your opinion?

 

[saforwardlook]

I felt the TQs were very good carburetors and are good choices on those engines in the early years 72-74 (the 383s became 400s though in those years but the TQs run well on 383s but you need to change out the intake manifolds and other throttle linkage/cable pieces to install them). But when catalysts were introduced in 1975, Chrysler chose to go with a lean burn system to lower emissions even though the new catalysts ate up the hydrocarbons and carbon monoxide emissions. There was one guy in the fuel system lab named Gordon Fenn, and he pushed his lean burn ideology on the company when other automakers were much smarter and ran richer calibrations that had good driveability compared to the lean burn systems in Chrysler products. The calibrations were so lean that the cars ran badly especially when cold and the TQs took the blame by many instead of the engineers who let those calibrations out. Chrysler lost a lot of sales due to really bad driveability and poor performance too. TQs are a little harder to rebuild, compared to earlier Carter carburetors, but when done correctly, they usually deliver great results. Also the secondary air valve is a little tricky to adjust too to each specific engine, but again, when done correctly they deliver really good performance. I have found over the years though, that some that I have tried to rebuild would not run right, and found that warping of the plastic carburetor body would not seal well - maybe 20% of them. Otherwise, nearly all the time, they run great with the first couple model years' versions. The lean burn carburetors from 1975 and up didn't run well and had more parts on them like idle enrichment valves and altitude compensators, etc, and were too lean, so I would stay away from those TQs.

 

[Cortez]

Holy smokes, was looking at carbs all night and i am officially LOST!!! So I flat out need recommendations, do I stick with a 600 or would I benefit from something a little bigger in the 750 range and whats the benefit of a double pumper and finally what are you guys running I have 440 K motor. Thanks guys I'm going crab crazy

 

[GJS]

Holy smokes, was looking at carbs all night and i am officially LOST!!! So I flat out need recommendations, do I stick with a 600 or would I benefit from something a little bigger in the 750 range and whats the benefit of a double pumper and finally what are you guys running I have 440 K motor. Thanks guys I'm going crab crazy

I ran a 750 on my 440 but that was a very stout build. For stock applications I wouldn't bother with anything over 650cfm.

I've responded to a few of these carb questions and I always say that I never had an issue with the Edelbrock Performer series 1406. However, it has been quite some time since I've been in the game and quite a few fellows up here disagree. Some tout the newer Thunder series 1806 (also 650cfm) .. some can't back Edelbrock at all. I have no argument for them!

All I know is that on a bone stock BB, I've dropped the 1406 on, started the engine, set the idle mixture and was off to the races (if only as a spectator).

 

[70bigblockdodge]

Just put a Eddy 1806 thunder series on it this will give you the ability to tweak the secondary opening point. The 1406 is a good carb also.
The Holley needs put on the shelf waiting till you sell the car.

 

[celticwarlock]

I have a stock Holley 650 on my '69 NY (440, also stock) that has given me no issues whatsoever in the 10 years I have owned the car. It was professionally rebuilt shortly before I took ownership of the car, I adjusted it once, and have not touched it since. It runs beautifully.

I understand that they had quality control issues over a large time span, and their spotty reputation might be deserved to some degree, but they're not all junk. As has been stated elsewhere in this thread, the ones they build now are trustworthy, even though they're not cheap.

Also, you do not need to change your intake manifold to change from spread bore to square bore (or vise-versa). A good adapter plate is a sound alternative. You will have to monkey around with the linkage, though.

 

[saforwardlook]

I have a stock Holley 650 on my '69 NY (440, also stock) that has given me no issues whatsoever in the 10 years I have owned the car. It was professionally rebuilt shortly before I took ownership of the car, I adjusted it once, and have not touched it since. It runs beautifully.

I understand that they had quality control issues over a large time span, and their spotty reputation might be deserved to some degree, but they're not all junk. As has been stated elsewhere in this thread, the ones they build now are trustworthy, even though they're not cheap.

Also, you do not need to change your intake manifold to change from spread bore to square bore (or vise-versa). A good adapter plate is a sound alternative. You will have to monkey around with the linkage, though.

How many miles have you put on the car since your original Holley was rebuilt? And how many total miles on the car? Could you post a photo of the rebuilt carb? Thanks.

 

[70bigblockdodge]

The Holley can be made to work if you have access to the equipment, milling machine to true up the warped surfaces. If it is a 1000 point resto and you have judges crawling up the tailpipe looking for certain markings well then you need to do it. For the rest of the world a brand new Eddy carb hidden under a stock air cleaner works and.cost less, period.

 

[celticwarlock]

How many miles have you put on the car since your original Holley was rebuilt? And how many total miles on the car? Could you post a photo of the rebuilt carb? Thanks.

I have put somewhere around 10K on it since that time. The car itself has about 58K on it. I'm not sure what the photo is for. We all know what a Holley looks like.

The only point I'm trying to make is that they're not all garbage. Maybe I lead a charmed life....I have had no issues with any I've had over the years. I'm sure the Eddies are great.....lots of people use them, and they won't break the bank.

Incidentally, I was told by the previous owner that the surfaces were squared up by the shop that performed the rebuild.

 

[saforwardlook]

I have put somewhere around 10K on it since that time. The car itself has about 58K on it. I'm not sure what the photo is for. We all know what a Holley looks like.

The only point I'm trying to make is that they're not all garbage. Maybe I lead a charmed life....I have had no issues with any I've had over the years. I'm sure the Eddies are great.....lots of people use them, and they won't break the bank.

Incidentally, I was told by the previous owner that the surfaces were squared up by the shop that performed the rebuild.

Thanks for the reply. I can only surmise that since the rebuild where surfaces were squared up, you have put pretty few miles on your car, and so the heat cycles are relatively few. My original Holley 4160 in my 1970 300 went 29K miles before it started acting bad, and thereafter, I couldn't just rebuild it. And the Holley rep stationed in the carb lab at Chrysler in Highland Park, where I worked, admitted the carbs could not just be rebuilt due to warpage when they started to go bad. He handed me a new one that went another 30K before having to replace that one too. I changed over to a Carter AVS and never had a problem all the way to 205K miles, with only one rebuild in that time frame, and it was easily successful. I guess if you have a rebuilder that can true the surfaces, then you can rebuild them. But for me, why bother when a Carter doesn't require that extra work, and it will last more than 30K miles? In my book, the original Holleys are not commercially acceptable to be on a production car that is expected to have reasonable durability before going bad. But if you don't mind and you drive very little, it probably won't matter to you. I hope your accelerator pump diaphragm doesn't develop a leak either, as you might find your engine going up in flames. Sorry, I just don't like their designs as they are poor in terms of durability and safety, with so many vertical sealing gaskets, O rings in the tubes connecting the float bowls and the accelerator pump to leak fuel. I prefer peace of mind with a well engineered Carter.
One last thought, I usually recommend that people not just buy an old used Holley 4 bbl and try to rebuild them on their own. Virtually all the time they will fail and waste time and money. Thanks for sharing your experience though.

 

[70bigblockdodge]

Thanks for the reply. I can only surmise that since the rebuild where surfaces were squared up, you have put pretty few miles on your car, and so the heat cycles are relatively few. My original Holley 4160 in my 1970 300 went 29K miles before it started acting bad, and thereafter, I couldn't just rebuild it. And the Holley rep stationed in the carb lab at Chrysler in Highland Park, where I worked, admitted the carbs could not just be rebuilt due to warpage when they started to go bad. He handed me a new one that went another 30K before having to replace that one too. I changed over to a Carter AVS and never had a problem all the way to 205K miles, with only one rebuild in that time frame, and it was easily successful. I guess if you have a rebuilder that can true the surfaces, then you can rebuild them. But for me, why bother when a Carter doesn't require that extra work, and it will last more than 30K miles? In my book, the original Holleys are not commercially acceptable to be on a production car that is expected to have reasonable durability before going bad. But if you don't mind and you drive very little, it probably won't matter to you. I hope your accelerator pump diaphragm doesn't develop a leak either, as you might find your engine going up in flames. Sorry, I just don't like their designs as they are poor in terms of durability and safety, with so many vertical sealing gaskets, O rings in the tubes connecting the float bowls and the accelerator pump to leak fuel. I prefer peace of mind with a well engineered Carter.
One last thought, I usually recommend that people not just buy an old used Holley 4 bbl and try to rebuild them on their own. Virtually all the time they will fail and waste time and money. Thanks for sharing your experience though.

I think if the surfaces are squared after many heat cycles they will be okay. They are very frustrating because after you rebuild it yourself and it does exactly what it did before. I've never had one leak that hadn't sat for years and the new no stick gaskets are very nice.