Starting problems

[MightyMats]

Good Morning fellow C-body members.

So I am having problems starting my 300 and im looking if anyone could give me some ideas as to why im having these problems.

Backstory: Two weeks ago or so I left my lights on and I killed the battery. Got a jump, drove it around for 30 minutes or so. Shut it off, turned it back on, perfect so i walked away. I went to start it later and nothing, no joy. Got a jump thinking the battery might have been junk and still nothing. I determined with a multi-meter that it was an electrical problem.

I thought the fusable link was trash so i pulled it apart to find that it wasnt. So i made a new one (same length and wire gauge). I wasn't getting power to the started solenoid so i took all the connections off, cleaned them and then got power to the firewall. Still didn't start. I took all the connections off the firewall, cleaned them all out and filled them up with grease, still didnt start. I replaced the ground wire off the battery because it was corroded, still nothing. Then I went under the dash and determined that I am not getting power to the key. So somewhere between where the key and the firewall is where my circuit is broken. I have power coming out of the firewall into the cab.

I do not have headlights or lights in the car when i open the door. My horn does work and so does my power seat. I hooked up a wire from the ballast resistor going to the battery that way I got 12 volts (9 volts) to the distributor. Then I took a screwdriver and connected the power post on the starter solenoid to the starter wire and I started the car. Now I can drive the car if I need to (obviously being mindful of the electrical hazard I just created).

My question is what am I missing between the firewall and the key. Its really hard to see upside down and im having a hard time getting my hands behind the dash. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

 

[1970cat]

not sure what car you have, but if one side of the fuse panel has power and the other doesn't it is probably your ammeter.

 

[traintech55]

As you can see, I agreed with the first answer. Now here is what you can do to determine if it is the ammeter. Disconnect the battery, remove the output wire from the back of the meter, and connect it to the input side. Reconnect the battery and see if you have current flow. Their are many places who repair meters, or you can upgrade to a voltmeter to monitor your charging system. Keep us posted.

 

[MightyMats]

Sorry its a 1967 chrysler 300

Ill check out the ammeter

 

[CBODY67]

Personally, I don't see how the Ammeter could suddenly fail with just a dead battery and a jump start.

On my '67 Newport, which I bought used, one evening, I decided to go put some gas in it. The station was several blocks away. That went fine. As I hadn't driven it in several days, I decided to go a few blocks farther before I turned around to head to the house. As I turned off of the main street, the car died. Had lights, but no start. Everything outside of the interior worked, but no start. So I walked back to the house and got my father to pull it back to the house. I did the checks under the hood, all looked fine. I got out the service manual to see what the wiring circuits were. I discovered the "big red wire" that supplied power to the ignition switch. I found it on the bulkhead connector, inside, and traced it to the ignition switch. I found a gnarly section that had been covered with chewing gum silver paper! Obviously, the previous owner had wanted to wire something in and just spread the wire to do it rather than use connectors. I got the good solderless connectors at work, some more 10g red wire, appropriate connector insulators. Then I pre-made my splice and attached it to the existing red wire, taking out the gnarly section. No more issues!

Later, I discovered that same red wire's connector at the inner bulkhead connector was not tight, so if it suddenly didn't start, I'd check it to see if it was firmly plugged in.

When I put the MP electronic ignition conversion kit on the car, everything worked well, until I did my initial starts' quality control check. The first 4 times I started it, it did fine. But on the 5th consecutive try, nothing. A new starter relay didn't help. Voltage was "everywhere", but no start. I then put a critical eye on the battery terminals and found a thin layer of gunk on the positive post, between the terminal and the battery post. The negative terminal/post was clean, BUT I gave them all a good cleaning with a terminal wire brush. Reinstalled and all starts worked fine after that.

NOW, there's a few other things . . . With a dead battery, it will take more than 30 minutes of run time to get the battery close to fully charged again. This normally takes an hour or two with a slow charger, otherwise! So, it might have had enough juice to start the car again, but it wasn't all the way charged by any means, especially with the size alternator on the car. IF, perhaps, the alternator has a bad diode, it can still charge, but as a diode is a "one-way switch", it can allow voltage to return to the alternator when the engine stops, draining the battery. Diodes are replaceable items. We went through that with our '66 Newport years ago, once. It always seemed to happen on Friday afternoon before we had to go to the high school football game that evening. That might have been the original failure point, causing the dead battery in the first place?

I would think that if the Ammeter is working, it would be showing discharge and charge, as appropriate?

Just some thoughts and experiences,
CBODY67

 

[Gerald Morris]

Check the little BROWN wire going from the starter relay to the reverse switch on the tranny. Check also the power going into the starter relay. I had the 16 gauge YELLOW wire connecting the ignition switch to that relay appear intact when in fact all but one strand had corroded or broke off the female spade connector connecting it to the relay. It was a nasty trick, but I eventually found it. Disconnect this wire, then see if hot wiring TO that connector ON the relay will cause the solenoid to engage and turn the motor over for you. If so, then its this wire. Run a new one from the ignition switch if you can't repair things any other way. I had enough slack in the old wire to just crimp on a new female spade, 1/4 inch and all is well.

 

[rags]

ever see what shorted rectifier looks like on a scope? those machines were fantastic for this stuff.

 

[MightyMats]

Wow it was back in September this thing broke down. So I finally got around to digging into the Chrysler at 2200 last night. I didn't have a wiring diagram and maybe i should have looked here for one. I chased the power wire under the dash coming out of the fuse block. I hate it when harnesses are wrapped in electrical tape. I ended up taking out the gauge cluster to chase the wire. I figure out that the Ammeter on the dash cluster died. I had power going to it but didn't have power coming out of it. I then attached the power wire into the Ammeter the power wire coming out of the Ammeter and I then got power to the key and the car turned over. Multimeters are a life saver. Definitively a must for anyone doing electrical work.

Should I just bypass the Ammeter? I can't find anywhere online that sells one for a 67 chrysler 300. Any tips or links?

Thanks,
Ty

 

[MightyMats]

I found a thread here that shows how to bypass the Ammeter. I basically wire the charge wire from the Alternator to the starter solenoid like a chevy. Then I have to re-wire a few things so that the Ammeter gauge is by-passed. Seems pretty simple, ill upgrade eventually to a voltmeter.

 

[Jon O.]

Personally, I don't see how the Ammeter could suddenly fail with just a dead battery and a jump start.

There is your problem, coincidences happen all of the time. I have been burned by that very thinking before. It is a 50 year old car. two things can break at once.

 

[CBODY67]

There is your problem, coincidences happen all of the time. I have been burned by that very thinking before. It is a 50 year old car. two things can break at once.

The "coincidence" could be that the vehicle doing the jump starting was newer and had a much more powerful alternator on it, probably 150a or so. When putting a fresh alternator on a newer vehicle with a dead battery, the regulator will spike the alternator output to MAX with the dead battery in the circuit, as it then self-cooks the regulator and fries the replaced alternator. I know this can happen on '90s Fords and newer GM vehicles. Which is why you always charge the "dead" battery before starting the vehicle when the alternator failed to charge and was replaced with a new or known-good unit.

As the wiring harness and such were probably designed to hold about 100a from the police alternator, then putting 150a through a similar-design ammeter could well have cooked it when the vehicle was started and "juice" flowed through it. Coincidence?

Of course, this scenario is based upon a late-model vehicle supplying the jump start voltage. Using a jump box or "hot" battery might change things.

The existing ammeter can probably be rebuilt by somebody in the restoration end of things?

CBODY67

 

[MightyMats]

I got the car running tonight but I didn't finish the wiring completely. It was 30 degrees out and I had just got done working another 10.5 hour day. I made some mental notes on how I wanted to finish wiring it all and called it quits. I should have it done next week. I'll bring it to the shop on Monday and hopefully I'll be able to get it wired to my liking in a nice heated shop. Pics to follow.

 

[Jon O.]

The "coincidence" could be that the vehicle doing the jump starting was newer and had a much more powerful alternator on it, probably 150a or so. When putting a fresh alternator on a newer vehicle with a dead battery, the regulator will spike the alternator output to MAX with the dead battery in the circuit, as it then self-cooks the regulator and fries the replaced alternator. I know this can happen on '90s Fords and newer GM vehicles. Which is why you always charge the "dead" battery before starting the vehicle when the alternator failed to charge and was replaced with a new or known-good unit.

As the wiring harness and such were probably designed to hold about 100a from the police alternator, then putting 150a through a similar-design ammeter could well have cooked it when the vehicle was started and "juice" flowed through it. Coincidence?

Of course, this scenario is based upon a late-model vehicle supplying the jump start voltage. Using a jump box or "hot" battery might change things.

The existing ammeter can probably be rebuilt by somebody in the restoration end of things?

CBODY67

I trust your opinion more than mine. I once changed spark plugs and then my newport wouldn't start and I spent all day doing everything I did backwards only to find out that it was a completely unrelated wire that had died at the same time. Complete coincidence.

 

[CBODY67]

I know we're dealing with vehicles with some age and wear on them, exposure to many hot/cold cycles, and various other things over the years. With some experience, we can determine what the vehicle's been through in its life before we came to own it. I've also observed that sometimes we want to upgrade things, for whatever reason, when no upgrades are really needed or beneficial -- just to know that it's allegedly better than the way it came, possibly. Even to the extent of a complete vehicle re-wiring project.

I've observed that almost every mid-'70s Dodge pickup I've seen has had some sort of wiring "mods" on it. Allegedly because they had "junk harnesses" on them. Or might it have had more to do with the financial demographics of the prior owners and/or parts availability?

Of the Chryslers my family has owned/still owns, most from new or a year old at the time, wiring harness issues have been zilch, even no ballast resistor failures (which many claim are very common). My '70 Monaco I got with 80K miles when it was 5 years old. Worse consistent issue was the sockets for the dash lights, which would break one tang and the light didn't work. On the '72 Newport Royal, one night the instrument panel lights went out, then came back on, then flickered. A loose ground screw that was easy to get to and took all of 2 seconds to fix . . . once I discovered where it was.

I'd put the DirectConnection electronic voltage regulator (to replace the orig voltage regulator) on my '67 Newport. Supposed to be a better deal! Until I happened to find where the prior owner had sought a power source for something, by stripping the red wire going to the ignition switch, wrapping the wire needing the power around the bare strands, then later removing it, and covering it with chewing gum wrapping, after re-connecting the bare strands of wire. If I'd not done the voltage regulator change, I'd probably never have found it! OR known about it. Fixed that with some solderless connectors and a new length of wire. Later, the terminal for that wire into the bulkhead connector got loose and might fall off. Once I knew where to look, didn't take much to fix.

When the '66 was newer, a diode in the alternator would drain the battery. Replaced a few of those and then got a reman alternator. End of problem. I drove that car to college and also rescued several GM car owners when their Chevies had issues. Being a "Basic Group" car, it had factory a/c and all of the upgrades that went with it. One time, the trunk light switch failed and drained the battery overnight. That one took a bit of diagnosis!

But the key thing is that all of the electrical systems and wiring were all very reliable and durable. No need to upgrade or change anything. Which has always led me to wonder why others seem to have to re-wire things and all of that? From being in the dealership parts business for 41+ years, I know that when things fail, there's a reason other than "just age", even on newer vehicles. It always appeared to me that Chrysler used wires with a thicker insulation on them than GM typically did, even for the same gauge of the conductor. Which should enhance long-term durability.

But I also know that even the best designs can end up being like the anvil that got torn up in a sand pile. Just going by what I've seen and experienced over the years. Like the spark plug wire (from a Borg-Warner Kool Wire II set) that had a poor terminal crimp, that under various conditions, would send the computer into Limp In mode, that's a quality control issue rather than a design issue. Once I accidentally discovered that issue, put the terminal back on and re-crimped it, no more problems.

On my '77 Camaro, I've chased far more harness issues than all of my Chryslers put together. Including a battery negative cable that developed an issue under the insulation, over time. Everything looked fine, but when it'd lose .5 volts between the battery and any ground location I might have chosen, it caused problems. When it didn't lose that .5 volts, everything was fine. Finally replaced the cable that that problem ended.

I can see wiring around something as part of a diagnosis situation, but doing something like that to "make it better" or "like ______ does it", always make me wonder if the modification is really an improvement or "rigging".

Respectfully,
CBODY67

 

[MYSINBIN]

FWIW, I had a similar issue with my black 2DHT. It turned out to be the ammeter.

After I removed/replaced, I checked continuity on the ammeter posts-nothing.

A twist with a pair of pliers on the posts regained continuity.

Hope the input helps.

John