1974 spindles on a ‘65. Can this be done?

[zcd76]

Firstly, I apologize if this has been covered. I searched and didn’t find what I am looking for.

The situation: recently bought a ‘65 Newport and am in the process of repairing and updating quite a few things. In the idea of converting to a) discs in the front and b) a dual circuit brake system, I purchased from a salvage yard what was listed as spindles (with old rotors, calipers, etc) from a ‘73 New Yorker. Upon cleaning them and testing them on the correct (for a 65-73) upper ball joints, moog k772, I believe the parts are actually off a 74 or newer car (lower ball joint would have been in the lower control arm).

I have new lower ball joints coming (the boots on the originals were basically non-existent and both were fairly sloppy).

That said, I realize (given everything I have found) that the 74+ cars’ suspension was different but I cannot deduce what all is exactly different about it. Obviously the lower ball joint is in the lower control arm in the newer cars. The 74+ cars take a k778 upper ball joint which, I believe, is too big in size to thread into the upper control arms of the 65-73 cars. Does anyone know if, dimensionally, the 65-73 upper arms are the same or similar to the 74+ arms as well as design?

I have access to a 74 car and, without having put my eyes on stuff, I am wondering if I couldn’t use the upper arms from the 74 (with new bushings and ball joints) to make what I have work. Or is it an altogether different design?

It would be nice to make what I have work but if it’s a big p.i.t.a. I will keep scouring.

 

[wyldebill]

Not 100% certain, but I have heard that the upper and lower control arms can be swapped to allow later brakes. I'm sure someone will correct me if not.

 

[zcd76]

Not 100% certain, but I have heard that the upper and lower control arms can be swapped to allow later brakes. I'm sure someone will correct me if not.

Understood.

The framing of this is I plan to use the stock (‘65) lower control arms and bolt the new lower ball joints to the spindle and lower control arms. Emphasis on ‘plan.’

If there is compatibility issues there’s compatibility issues.

The ‘74 I am contemplating robbing parts (UCAs) from is a couple of hours away. Looking at a picture of a 78 driver’s UCA on EBay - it certainly does not appear much changed in the design. I just wonder (hope) if the upper ball joint hole in the ‘74+ arms isn’t larger.

 

[Ripinator]

Firstly, I apologize if this has been covered. I searched and didn’t find what I am looking for.

The situation: recently bought a ‘65 Newport and am in the process of repairing and updating quite a few things. In the idea of converting to a) discs in the front and b) a dual circuit brake system, I purchased from a salvage yard what was listed as spindles (with old rotors, calipers, etc) from a ‘73 New Yorker. Upon cleaning them and testing them on the correct (for a 65-73) upper ball joints, moog k772, I believe the parts are actually off a 74 or newer car (lower ball joint would have been in the lower control arm).

I have new lower ball joints coming (the boots on the originals were basically non-existent and both were fairly sloppy).

That said, I realize (given everything I have found) that the 74+ cars’ suspension was different but I cannot deduce what all is exactly different about it. Obviously the lower ball joint is in the lower control arm in the newer cars. The 74+ cars take a k778 upper ball joint which, I believe, is too big in size to thread into the upper control arms of the 65-73 cars. Does anyone know if, dimensionally, the 65-73 upper arms are the same or similar to the 74+ arms as well as design?

I have access to a 74 car and, without having put my eyes on stuff, I am wondering if I couldn’t use the upper arms from the 74 (with new bushings and ball joints) to make what I have work. Or is it an altogether different design?

It would be nice to make what I have work but if it’s a big p.i.t.a. I will keep scouring.

I am not sure of the dimensional differences between the '74 and pre-'74 disc brake / control arm setup. Maybe @Ross Wooldridge will chime in and provide some answers.

 

[zcd76]

Well, the new lower ball joints showed up and the answer to my question above is NO. The spindle I have (74+) is drilled differently than the lower ball joint so that the two will not bolt together. The two holes in the spindle are probably 3/4” closer together than those on the 65-73 lower ball joint.

Shucky durns.

 

[Ross Wooldridge]

While I am not an acknowledged expert, I have been told unequivocally by those who are that the 74 spindle does not fit, I do not know any of the dimensional differences, only that it does not fit

 

[1970FuryConv]

Well, the new lower ball joints showed up and the answer to my question above is NO. The spindle I have (74+) is drilled differently than the lower ball joint so that the two will not bolt together. The two holes in the spindle are probably 3/4” closer together than those on the 65-73 lower ball joint.

Shucky durns.

Agree with you, 74 and later will not work. Pictures of what you have might help if you aren't sure what year.

 

[commando1]

I congratulate on your endeavor.
I'm having trouble finding them but I recall two threads discussing this situation. What I do remember clearly that both attempts to adapt the 74 setup were very sketchy at best and downright dangerous at worst. I remember looking at the mods and fabrication required and thinking to myself they wouldn't last the first 1,000 miles.
So, in summary, no you can't. Sorry.

 

[SGT FURY]

For what it’s worth! I know derby guys who have successfully used 74-78 disc set ups on 67-73 imperials

 

[commando1]

For what it’s worth! I know derby guys who have successfully used 74-78 disc set ups on 67-73 imperials

Never heard that one but it's plausible. Unfortunately, he doesn't have an Imp.

 

[69PHOENIX]

O.K.
Stupid Suggestion Time.
Thirty Years Ago I was Looking at Installing Disc Brakes onto a 1959 Dodge Custom Royal.
Having Played with Dodge Phoenix / Plymouth Fury Most of My Life I was Familiar with the Fact
That Chrysler Mostly Didn't Change Specs If They Didn't Have to.
So I Tried Fitting the Discs off a 69 Phoenix / Fury.
From What I could see the Bearing Sizes & Spacing were Identical with the Drum Spindle on the 59.
It was only a Matter of Sliding the 69 Discs onto the 59 Spindles and Then Making an Adapter to
Mount the Calipers.
Might Sound a Little Difficult BUT you would have Zero OTHER Problems. (You're Not Changing Any of the Original Geometry)
As the 59 Front Suspension was Similar to the Later Fury's (73 -) I eventually Fluked a Complete Set-Up
from a 73 Monaco and had a Machine Shop Turn Up a Set of tapered Ball joint Sleeves.
(The Monaco has Larger Ball Joint Pins Than the 59)
My Suggestion:
Find a Set of Discs that will Fit your Spindles & Then make a Set of Caliper Mounts.
Not as Difficult as You Might Think!
I Actually Stripped a 60 Model that Someone had used 1/2 inch Steel Plates for Mounting the Calipers.
You'll Need a Little Machine Work & some Oxy Cutting, Grinding & Shaping, Drilling Etc.)
Forgive Me for Being Rude, But Surely There are Enough of You Fellas in the States to Sort out a Project.
(There Must Be More Than One Fella Who Would Like Disc brakes)
Anyway Just a Few Thoughts, Hopefully These May be of Some Use & Steer You in a Helpful Direction.
All the Best,
Tony.M

 

[commando1]

O.K.
Stupid Suggestion Time.
Thirty Years Ago I was Looking at Installing Disc Brakes onto a 1959 Dodge Custom Royal.
Having Played with Dodge Phoenix / Plymouth Fury Most of My Life I was Familiar with the Fact
That Chrysler Mostly Didn't Change Specs If They Didn't Have to.
So I Tried Fitting the Discs off a 69 Phoenix / Fury.
From What I could see the Bearing Sizes & Spacing were Identical with the Drum Spindle on the 59.
It was only a Matter of Sliding the 69 Discs onto the 59 Spindles and Then Making an Adapter to
Mount the Calipers.
Might Sound a Little Difficult BUT you would have Zero OTHER Problems. (You're Not Changing Any of the Original Geometry)
As the 59 Front Suspension was Similar to the Later Fury's (73 -) I eventually Fluked a Complete Set-Up
from a 73 Monaco and had a Machine Shop Turn Up a Set of tapered Ball joint Sleeves.
(The Monaco has Larger Ball Joint Pins Than the 59)
My Suggestion:
Find a Set of Discs that will Fit your Spindles & Then make a Set of Caliper Mounts.
Not as Difficult as You Might Think!
I Actually Stripped a 60 Model that Someone had used 1/2 inch Steel Plates for Mounting the Calipers.
You'll Need a Little Machine Work & some Oxy Cutting, Grinding & Shaping, Drilling Etc.)
Forgive Me for Being Rude, But Surely There are Enough of You Fellas in the States to Sort out a Project.
(There Must Be More Than One Fella Who Would Like Disc brakes)
Anyway Just a Few Thoughts, Hopefully These May be of Some Use & Steer You in a Helpful Direction.
All the Best,
Tony.M

You made it sound so simple...

 

[69PHOENIX]

commando 1,
The Hard Part is to have the Bloke that Eventually Sorts it Out to Make a Template for Others to benefit From.
Over Here I Knew a Fella who had a Exhaust Shop Make Up a Set of Extractors, But Didn't Keep a Template.
So the Next Fella Also had to Fork Out $2,000 to have His Set Made.
(Remember We're Talking RHD with the P/S Box Basically Trying to Kiss the Stock Manifold.)
You Can Do Just About Anything If You Set Your Mind to It.
An Example:
I Had an Old Friend Who had a 38 Chrysler Royal
The Pot metal was Terribly Pitted on an Otherwise Perfectly Restored Vehicle.
The Bonnet Mascot & Skirts had the Same Design. (Only the Mascot was Split down the Middle for the Skirts)
It Cost Him $1400 to have the Moulds made and Cast in Stainless. (About 4 Weeks Wages back then)
But He Defrayed the Cost by Offering the Items to Other "38" Owners for $200 a Set.
(Keep in Mind Finding Six Other Owners In OZ wasn't Easy And Finding Six Other Owners Willing to Part With Their Money....)
He Eventually recovered his Costs & mentioned to Me That he was Thinking of Reducing the Price.
My Advice, No.
Reasons being That the Original People Who Purchased at $200 are Going to Whinge,
And He was the Fella Who took the Risk of Having these Made, Why Shouldn't He make Something Out of It.
Not That He was Going to Make a Mint Anyway!
Just a Little Extra Money to Help Maintain the Car.
O.K.
We Have a Saying Over here: Wake Up Australia!
Surely There Must Be 10, 20, 30, Maybe Even 50 Fellas With Similar Models Who Would Like to have Disc Brakes.
If Everybody Chips in & Pays a Competent Machine Shop to Design the Caliper Mounts the Cost would be Minimal!
Even at $2,000 for the Mounts 10 = $200. 20 = $100. 50 = $40.
Even if it came to Nothing, If I Needed Discs I Would be Willing to Risk Losing $40 if it Didn't Work Out.
A Carton of Bud Dry & a Couple of Pizzas. LOL
Anyway That's the Advice from an Old Codger.
Kind Regards,
Tony.M

 

[fury fan]

My assessment based on learning that 69-73 calipers have dried up (at the parts store):

I don't think we are out of C-body disk spindles yet - so those are 'the best' to use.
They brought out 69-72 rotors at a reasonable price, and 73 rotors still available also.
We are running short on calipers currently - but we can run for awhile rebuilding cores, as the seal kits/pistons are still available.
Or getting the stainless sleeving could be an option (as long as that company remains in business).

Next best option is a retrofit kit to mount discs on the drum spindles.
There are numerous kits out there, some seem better than others in regard to how 'professionally' it has been conceived/engineered.
None of them post anything close to a performance spec, other than someone that claims 25% more braking than B-body 11" rotors.
And there are so many players that I don't see how a new 'kit' could arrive and carve a niche.


Unless - it could be a modular style, that allowed a good-size caliper to mount on a bracket, and with bracket/rotor options to fit 14, 15 and 17" wheels.
The rotors would need to be floating/hat-style, to re-use the C-body hub-bearings-seals.
And maybe the bracket could be designed to allow the caliper to mount in 1 of 3 positions to match the rotor dia. (or maybe just have different brackets)
But the trick is finding a rotor that has enough depth to get the caliper inboard, away from the wheel and also enough clearance to fit over the hub.
Most modern cars have very shallow rotors and the depth is built into the wheel. That won't work for those of us that want era-appropriate wheels (which aren't flat-faced).
Some years ago I found 1 rotor, about 12-1/2" dia and it fits the hub perfectly. It has some depth, but still not enough for its mating caliper to clear a 15" wheel.

 

[bnz84]

I have the older version but the current one fits 14" wheel. 1957-61 Plymouth, Dodge front

 

[pomonamissel]

that 74 up spindle can fix with alittle mod work on the 64 and earlier

 

[zcd76]

Reviving this.

Out of curiosity, does anyone have a source for calipers or, more specifically, the caliper brackets?

I have both spindles off a 71 Polara but don’t have the (caliper) brackets nor the calipers. I have a couple of sources for the calipers - and I can rebuild them myself, but they indicate they don’t have the caliper mounting brackets either.

 

[fury fan]

Murray Park in Tiffin OH is likely to have them, I got 4 core calipers form him when I learned that reman calipers went non-avail.
Wildcat in Sandy OR (IIRC) would be a likely source also.

 

[zcd76]

Dredging up an old thread…

So I bought what were purported to be 70 or 71 Polara disc brake spindles. They bolted up fine and I bought rotors, bearings, and wheel seals for a 71 Polara. However, when putting the brakes on both sides it’s almost like the rotors (brand new Bendix units appropriate for a 71 Polara) have been machined too narrow by ~1/4.” The outer bearing bottoms out on the spindle (machined ramp up in diameter) before the rotor is tight…for lack of better words. With the bearing bottomed out there’s approximately 1/4” of lateral (in and out) play.

All I received were the spindles, stripped. I didn’t take it apart so I don’t know if some oddball wheel bearing/rotor spacer is supposed to be installed (and missing) or whether I got some mislabeled spindles or mismachined rotors, or something else.

As it were the assembly is like this: (starting with the knuckle/spindle) wheel seal, inner bearing, inner bearing race, rotor, outer bearing race, outer bearing, spindle washer, spindle nut.

Anybody run into this before/have any ideas?

 

[Ross Wooldridge]

Pics would help. There should be a casting or part number on the spindles, yes?

So you say the rotors need bigger bearings? Could it be you have 73 spindles, which use a different bearing and rotor? OR... you got misboxed 73 rotors?