Cam package from Comp cams

[Seb'74]

Hi friends,
Does anybody has any info about the Comp Cams package K21-212-4 High energy 206/206? Actually, I live in France, and some guy is selling this package, complete and new. I was wondering what can I expect in terms of power increase if I install it on my 1974 Fury, with 400 ci stock engine (M code). I have searched for infos but did not find anything very interesting. Any help appreciated from you Mopar Pros, including the choice of a new carb to get something coherent/homogenuous. Thanks y'all!

 

[detmatt]

I am sorry to say that I won’t purchase anything from Comp anymore. Their quality has been hit and miss and I need confidence when buying new parts for the rotating assembly. There are better choices.

 

[Lefty71]

COMP Cams K21-212-4 COMP Cams High Energy Cam and Lifter Kits | Summit Racing

Seems pretty mild... what performance level were you looking for??

 

[Seb'74]

I'm looking for a little more power, this car will never be a race car ;)
But a power increase will be fine. A '74 stock 400 2BBL is approx 175 to 190 hp according to sources, if I could reach 250 hp, it would be fine

 

[Seb'74]

I am sorry to say that I won’t purchase anything from Comp anymore. Their quality has been hit and miss and I need confidence when buying new parts for the rotating assembly. There are better choices.

Realy? So what brands would you recommend? I heard about Edelbrock parts, are they worth the cost?

 

[detmatt]

Realy? So what brands would you recommend? I heard about Edelbrock parts, are they worth the cost?

Certainly do your own research(Google) but since blacklisting Comp I’ve moved on to Lunati most recently based on referrals and it is way to soon for me to report my experience with them yet.

 

[Two 67's]

Howards Cams also

 

[Mike66Chryslers]

Realy? So what brands would you recommend? I heard about Edelbrock parts, are they worth the cost?

Edelbrock and Comp are owned by the same company now.

Edelbrock Owner Acquires COMP Performance Group | THE SHOP

The companies will continue to operate as independent organizations.

theshopmag.com

I would also recommend Lunati, though I have no personal experience with them. I would have used a Lunati Voodoo cam in a recent installation but they require a 3-bolt timing gear and I didn't want to buy another timing set. I installed a mild Comp Extreme Energy cam but I used Crower lifters. I specifically recommend against Comp lifters, and so does the owner of the speed shop that I deal with.

 

[Ripinator]

Edelbrock and Comp are owned by the same company now.

http://[URL]https://theshopmag.com/news/edelbrock-owner-acquires-comp-performance/

[/URL]

I would also recommend Lunati, though I have no personal experience with them. I would have used a Lunati Voodoo cam in a recent installation but they require a 3-bolt timing gear and I didn't want to buy another timing set. I installed a mild Comp Extreme Energy cam but I used Crower lifters. I specifically recommend against Comp lifters, and so does the owner of the speed shop that I deal with.

I wonder if Comp / Edlebrock has made any public statements regarding the lifter issues. There have been so many people talking about the problem, I don't see how hey can ignore it.

Two years ago, a machinist rebuilt my 440 engine and at his recommendation, we used a complete Comp Cams kit (cam, lifters,springs, etc.). I broke in the cam using Comp 15-40 break-in oil, and so far everything appears o be OK. Regardless, I'm walking on egg shells now . .

 

[Mike66Chryslers]

I wonder if Comp / Edlebrock has made any public statements regarding the lifter issues. There have been so many people talking about the problem, I don't see how hey can ignore it.

Two years ago, a machinist rebuilt my 440 engine and at his recommendation, we used a complete Comp Cams kit (cam, lifters,springs, etc.). I broke in the cam using Comp 15-40 break-in oil, and so far everything appears o be OK. Regardless, I'm walking on egg shells now . .

If the initial break-in went ok and you're happy now, it will probably be ok.

I had defective Comp lifters in an engine I built over 10 years ago which would not stay pumped-up once the engine warmed up and would start clattering. Comp would not replace them under warranty, claimed it was something else wrong. After trying other things, I eventually confirmed that it was the lifters by replacing them with a different brand and they were finally quiet.

The owner of the speed shop I deal with (who is also a racer and engine builder himself) said that he's not surprised, and in his opinion the quality of Comp lifters has gone downhill since then. They used to be laser etched with their part number, but the ones he's seen recently do not have that. He thinks they're repackaging cheaper lifters now.

 

[6-david-5]

If the initial break-in went ok and you're happy now, it will probably be ok.

I had defective Comp lifters in an engine I built over 10 years ago which would not stay pumped-up once the engine warmed up and would start clattering. Comp would not replace them under warranty, claimed it was something else wrong. After trying other things, I eventually confirmed that it was the lifters by replacing them with a different brand and they were finally quiet.

The owner of the speed shop I deal with (who is also a racer and engine builder himself) said that he's not surprised, and in his opinion the quality of Comp lifters has gone downhill since then. They used to be laser etched with their part number, but the ones he's seen recently do not have that. He thinks they're repackaging cheaper lifters now.

I have to comment on this—and I’m glad I found someone with this experience!

Under 2 years ago, I installed a Comp Cams cam & lifter kit (XE274H) into the 383 in my ’68 Dart. The 383 was a stock rebuild with a stock cam. I broke it in sucessfully with the inner springs removed. In fact I drove it for quite some time with the inner springs removed, and just dealt with the limited rev range (to 5200 on a good day)! I know the cam & lifters are broken in!

Once I reinstalled the inner springs, the engine was clatter-city! It sounded like doing so made a lifter collapse! It made me pull valve covers & recheck my work—only to find a properly-assembled engine! For an experiment, I bought 6 quarts of Valvoline VR-1 50W. The oil change made the engine sound WAY better!

The problem NOW is it still is hampered by a limited rev range. Depending on the day, the 383 has revved to 5500 in 1’st, 5300 in 2’nd (you could hear the engine start to “break up”, & feel it lose power). The weakness has always felt like the lifters!

The oil pump appears like a standard replacement, but it seems like my next “crutch” would be to increase pressure with a "spring", or with a HV pump upgrade. OR, to pull those damn lifters & redo a break-in!

If I ever happen to become enamored with a cam grind from Comp again, it will be a CAM ONLY!

Thanks for the chance to vent!

David

 

[cbarge]

Big heavy car with lower compression and considering the price of fuel in Europe...
Go with a cam kit intended for RV or truck use. 270 duration with 454 lift for example...you will have to some homework from here.
Work with stock valvetrain, smooth idle no loss of vacuum and gobs of torque.
Yes stay away from the said brands...I have a wagon thats a lump in the garage thsnks to them.

 

[Mike66Chryslers]

I have to comment on this—and I’m glad I found someone with this experience!

Under 2 years ago, I installed a Comp Cams cam & lifter kit (XE274H) into the 383 in my ’68 Dart. The 383 was a stock rebuild with a stock cam. I broke it in sucessfully with the inner springs removed. In fact I drove it for quite some time with the inner springs removed, and just dealt with the limited rev range (to 5200 on a good day)! I know the cam & lifters are broken in!

Once I reinstalled the inner springs, the engine was clatter-city! It sounded like doing so made a lifter collapse! It made me pull valve covers & recheck my work—only to find a properly-assembled engine! For an experiment, I bought 6 quarts of Valvoline VR-1 50W. The oil change made the engine sound WAY better!

The problem NOW is it still is hampered by a limited rev range. Depending on the day, the 383 has revved to 5500 in 1’st, 5300 in 2’nd (you could hear the engine start to “break up”, & feel it lose power). The weakness has always felt like the lifters!

The oil pump appears like a standard replacement, but it seems like my next “crutch” would be to increase pressure with a "spring", or with a HV pump upgrade. OR, to pull those damn lifters & redo a break-in!

If I ever happen to become enamored with a cam grind from Comp again, it will be a CAM ONLY!

Thanks for the chance to vent!

David

Very interesting, thanks for sharing that David. For comparison's sake I'll add a bit more detail to my experience. My engine is also a 383. My Comp cam and lifter kit used an older grind, the High Energy 252H or 256H. I forget which, their mildest one though, advertised power band from idle to 5500RPM.... basically an "RV cam". Engine was built stock-ish for cruising in my convertible, not for performance. I specifically chose an older grind without the faster ramps of newer cams because I wanted an easy break-in and the engine to be smooth and quiet when cruising with the top down.

Valve springs are "HP" springs purchased from 440 Source. New stamped steel rockers on new shafts. I wound up using adjustable pushrods from Smith Brothers and shims under the rocker shaft on one side to ensure the valvetrain geometry and preload were PERFECT. Oil pump is a Melling HV pump, good oil pressure at idle. It developed more pressure at high RPM than needed, so I swapped the lighter regulator spring from a standard pump. My usual oil is Rotella 15w40 plus a shot of ZDDP additive, but at different times I tried adding Lucas Oil Stabilizer to thicken the oil, and I also tried an oil change with heavy-duty straight 30 weight oil. No change.

If you break-in new lifters on the cam, get a name brand set. I made the mistake of buying SpeedPro lifters from RockAuto to replace the Comp ones. I believe they were defective due to being made from metal that was too soft. Some stopped spinning and others were wearing on the center of the face even though they were still spinning. I'll note however that the car spent a lot of time idling after the initial break-in because it went off to the bodyshop for paint and was started and moved around in his shop several times over a week, so that may have contributed to them failing. Anyhow, I only drove 160 miles with the new lifters and had to teardown the top end to replace the cam and lifters.

 

[Ripinator]

Very interesting, thanks for sharing that David. For comparison's sake I'll add a bit more detail to my experience. My engine is also a 383. My Comp cam and lifter kit used an older grind, the High Energy 252H or 256H. I forget which, their mildest one though, advertised power band from idle to 5500RPM.... basically an "RV cam". Engine was built stock-ish for cruising in my convertible, not for performance. I specifically chose an older grind without the faster ramps of newer cams because I wanted an easy break-in and the engine to be smooth and quiet when cruising with the top down.

Valve springs are "HP" springs purchased from 440 Source. New stamped steel rockers on new shafts. I wound up using adjustable pushrods from Smith Brothers and shims under the rocker shaft on one side to ensure the valvetrain geometry and preload were PERFECT. Oil pump is a Melling HV pump, good oil pressure at idle. It developed more pressure at high RPM than needed, so I swapped the lighter regulator spring from a standard pump. My usual oil is Rotella 15w40 plus a shot of ZDDP additive, but at different times I tried adding Lucas Oil Stabilizer to thicken the oil, and I also tried an oil change with heavy-duty straight 30 weight oil. No change.

If you break-in new lifters on the cam, get a name brand set. I made the mistake of buying SpeedPro lifters from RockAuto to replace the Comp ones. I believe they were defective due to being made from metal that was too soft. Some stopped spinning and others were wearing on the center of the face even though they were still spinning. I'll note however that the car spent a lot of time idling after the initial break-in because it went off to the bodyshop for paint and was started and moved around in his shop several times over a week, so that may have contributed to them failing. Anyhow, I only drove 160 miles with the new lifters and had to teardown the top end to replace the cam and lifters.

DAYUM!

 

[6-david-5]

For comparison's sake I'll add a bit more detail to my experience. My engine is also a 383. My Comp cam and lifter kit used an older grind, the High Energy 252H or 256H. I forget which, their mildest one though, advertised power band from idle to 5500RPM.... basically an "RV cam". Engine was built stock-ish for cruising in my convertible, not for performance. I specifically chose an older grind without the faster ramps of newer cams because I wanted an easy break-in and the engine to be smooth and quiet when cruising with the top down.

Unbelievable, even with that small of a cam!

Those are probably right in line with what we would recommend for the O P also! We certainly have a strong consensus here of what will likely set him in the wrong direction.

@Seb'74, that does look like a nice cam kit, and if it was being offered to me for a really good deal I would take it on BUT use a different set of lifters!! Cam grinders like Oregon Cam in Washington use Johnson Lifters, and I believe that is also true for Hughes Engines. That cam may give you a 20'ish horsepower increase.

For the carburetor an Edelbrock 1407 or 1411 750cfm. I would probably use a 3310 Holley but that's me ..

David

 

[496 polara]

That cam may give you a little extra hp but I would start with some other basic mods if you haven't already.
Dual exhaust ,4 bbl intake and carb (600-650cfm plenty for your application), and a recurved distributor will likely give you a much-needed boost in seat of the pants feel.
I know you are in France and parts are hard to come by.

 

[volksworld]

just for some more Comp bashing just got off the phone with a buddy who built a ford 429 street motor...bought the complete kit ....when they ran it on the dyno started breaking up at upper midrange...it was valve float...replaced the springs with some one elses and all good....he said he was so thankful for the dyno run cause he would have never figured it out himself once it was in the car...

 

[Big_John]

From things I've read and even watched a couple YouTube videos about the subject, I strongly believe that hydraulic lifters are pretty much built by one or two manufacturers and just labeled with whatever cam company is selling them.

Cams, of course, are a different matter, they are ground "in house", but I've wondered about what blanks they use as also coming from one or two manufacturers.

From everything I've seen, most of these cam companies are small operations, so them actually doing much more than grinding cams wouldn't make much sense. I just don't see them being able to build lifters (forging, grinding parts, assembling etc.) so IMHO, it rings true that they are buying and repackaging. I've heard that a couple of the companies were behind because of the lack of blanks.

Most likely, the lifters are made "off shore" and let's face it, the new car market for lifters is not there any more so it's going to be smaller amounts made and if they aren't dealing with the folks in Detroit, that demand good parts, quality might slip. Unless each lifter is checked for hardness, proper grind, etc., there's a good chance some bad lifters are going to sneak through.

Comp may be the one catching all the grief, probably because they are a bigger supplier. I really don't know.

Same for springs... Springs are a real specialty item and I've been in spring factories. It's not something that the cam companies are doing themselves either.

 

[volksworld]

if you really want to make your head spin research johnson lifters...michigan based lifter suppliers....the original company (an OEM supplier) went bankrupt around 2003...one group split off and continued to use the name, another group bought out the company and became topline hylift johnson...their manager (charles hicks) decided to start his own lifter co and stole a million bucks worth of hylifts equipment and put it in another location as well as purposly selling defective products to destroy the original co's reputation...seems they were selling Tiawan lifters for a while ....he got 4 yrs in jail in 2019...and the new owners now trying to get their reputation back, claim its all usa made...these are the ones hughes currently uses...both companies claim to be the original johnson lifter co...

 

[Big_John]

if you really want to make your head spin research johnson lifters...michigan based lifter suppliers....the original company (an OEM supplier) went bankrupt around 2003...one group split off and continued to use the name, another group bought out the company and became topline hylift johnson...their manager (charles hicks) decided to start his own lifter co and stole a million bucks worth of hylifts equipment and put it in another location as well as purposly selling defective products to destroy the original co's reputation...seems they were selling Tiawan lifters for a while ....he got 4 yrs in jail in 2019...and the new owners now trying to get their reputation back, claim its all usa made...these are the ones hughes currently uses...both companies claim to be the original johnson lifter co...

That's good that there is a US company building lifters... Of course, that doesn't automatically mean they are good either. If Hughes is using them, that could mean that they have a good product. I don't see Hughes as a company concerned with price point as much as I do Comp and similar companies.

Small company shenanigans are really common, so nothing surprises me anymore. With some of these small, privately held automotive suppliers, they seem to pass through a generation or two and then one of the "kids" gets in and either screws it all up or sells it to someone else. Family owned businesses can get really crazy... Siblings fight... Divorce settlements... Someone screwing one of the girls out on the floor... You name it.