Aquaman
Member
MANN goes way back. Rudolph Diesel, the man himself, worked with them.
Need advice for improving brake performance on my 1963 300 Pacesetter
- Thread starter FWD Look Fan
- Start date
Just Carbs
Well-Known Member
On the current NAPA customer service front.
I bought a 67 Toronado last year that had been sitting unattended under roof for about 10 years. There was a never installed Napa a/c compressor in a VERY old box in the truck, as in many years old box. No witness marks of any kind on the compressor. No plastic wrap, no receipt, just oil content instructions. The compressor showed signs of light case corrosion on the otherwise nice clean exterior. So, I installed the compressor and it leaked because of improper assemble at the back case plate. The big O ring was pinch fitted external to the case, not set into the case. It's a A6 gm style compressor.
Napa said the part # is good and here's your new rebuilt replacement compressor.
I think that is very good customer service.
I bought a 67 Toronado last year that had been sitting unattended under roof for about 10 years. There was a never installed Napa a/c compressor in a VERY old box in the truck, as in many years old box. No witness marks of any kind on the compressor. No plastic wrap, no receipt, just oil content instructions. The compressor showed signs of light case corrosion on the otherwise nice clean exterior. So, I installed the compressor and it leaked because of improper assemble at the back case plate. The big O ring was pinch fitted external to the case, not set into the case. It's a A6 gm style compressor.
Napa said the part # is good and here's your new rebuilt replacement compressor.
I think that is very good customer service.
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DaPoz
New Member
As far as drums and brake shoes go, send them to J and G. If they are turned over spec, they will install a iron liner into the drum to bring it back to stock diameter. They have been doing this for years on all makes. Plus, they will reline your shoes with a thicker, more modern friction material and then arc them to perfectly fit each drum, new liner or not.
Then you will be testing your seat belts, my 64 K stops on a dime. I also changed to a MOPAR drum/drum master for Chryslers.
62 63 64 65 66 DODGE CHRYSLER PLYMOUTH DUAL CONVERSION MASTER CYLINDER | eBay
Saw this too, not sure if it is a direct fit, but those tubes do bend a little. 62-64 Dodge Mopar Dual Master Conversion Cylinder Block and Brake Lines Tubes | eBay
By the way, your car is absolutely beautiful!
Finally someone with the CORRECT solution! I knew such things existed, but I'm 'old' and out of touch!
That's a true solution, spend what it costs and you will love the results. I grew up with showroom new factory Mopar Drum brake cars and I promise you, they STOPPED great.
Bruce
DaPoz
New Member
I checked before I closed the eBay window, and the brake line kits fits a 64 Dodge 880. That's pretty close to the Chryslers I do believe!
Just Carbs
Well-Known Member
Re-sleeving brake drums and arching shoes when there are no other options that have readily available replacement parts for future service is an excellent and expensive but way to go.
DaPoz
New Member
Yes, it does cost a bunch, but as number people have gone the disc brake conversion route sticking with 14 in wheels, they ultimately switched back. Shortcuts always cost more in the end.
If you can find suitable new drums from Timbuktu and cut the old ones off and remount them, and not arc the skinny lining shoes, you are still compromised.
Safety is paramount, and with the proper repairs, I hope we all live long enough to have to go through this endeavor again. But we will be alive since our brakes work!
I have had three cars where the single master went out, NEVER AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!! I have better options to do away with myself!
'Once upon a time', it was common practice to 'arc' a set of brake shoes to the freshly recut drum. That was when there were shops with MECHANICS in the bay, not 'Diagnostic Code Readers'. I personally would not let any of the modern breed of 'Technician' touch my vehicles.
Just Carbs
Well-Known Member
I haven't had to resort to any of the aftermarket disc conversion kits. I don't think I would go that route.
Fitting the factory disc from later year cars has worked with great success. But, I've not put little disc brakes on a big car yet.
Using new drums from other year cars has worked well for the rear brakes. In the case of a 64/64 full size Chrysler, the drum would be a 72 new Yorker rear drum for both front and rear for the 63/63. The new drums almost always (do) need to be cut. It's either round or it's not, there's no usable condition in between.
Arcing the new shoes to the new drums is accomplished by lining the drum with sticky back sandpaper and running the new shoes around the new drum. Either by hand or by inverting the drum on the axle and spinning it with the engine idled down as far as possible.
I trust a single chamber master cylinder, all the way to ten MPH.
Drum Brakes have acquired a 'bad rap' over the years due to customers asking for 'The CHEAPEST one you've got' at the parts counter. You can trust me on that, I did retail Car Parts for 15 years, half of that as a Store Manager in a small rural town. Over and over, for both Disc Pads and Drum Brake Shoes, 90% of the customers would ask for the Cheap ones. That also included almost all of the Repair Shops as well.
So now we have a generation of folks that have never driven a Four Wheel Drum Car that has properly working Brakes. To make matters worse, there is an 'Industry' built up to sell those folks on Disc Conversions and 'talk down' Drum systems. Personally, on a vehicle with 'nice wheels' I get tired of washing 'Disc Dust' off of 'em. If I did anything, I'd be converting from Disc to Drum.
Bruce
So now we have a generation of folks that have never driven a Four Wheel Drum Car that has properly working Brakes. To make matters worse, there is an 'Industry' built up to sell those folks on Disc Conversions and 'talk down' Drum systems. Personally, on a vehicle with 'nice wheels' I get tired of washing 'Disc Dust' off of 'em. If I did anything, I'd be converting from Disc to Drum.
Bruce
fury fan
Senior Member
We've also lost the appreciation for spring-powered alarm clocks.
The bad rap started back when drum brakes were new.
Road tests from back in the day had criticism for drumbrakes fading in successive stops and pulling out of a straight line.
When discs became available, the factory spec'd them on HD packages and police packages. Eventually - on the front of everything.
Buying more-expensive shoes won't guarantee they stop any better, there's no data available to the consumers on that (not at the parts store, anyway).
So they buy the cheapest.
Arcing a shoe's friction material to the drum, and adjusting them properly from the get-go, are 2 steps that aren't required with discs.
The OEM world moved on to discs 50 years ago - skills fade away when those skills become no longer relevant.
Yes, there are some sketchy conversion kits out there, and/or ones that have earned a bad rap for low quality parts.
But that does not diminish that the physics of heat rejection of a disc brake is superior to a drum brake.
The bad rap started back when drum brakes were new.
Road tests from back in the day had criticism for drumbrakes fading in successive stops and pulling out of a straight line.
When discs became available, the factory spec'd them on HD packages and police packages. Eventually - on the front of everything.
Buying more-expensive shoes won't guarantee they stop any better, there's no data available to the consumers on that (not at the parts store, anyway).
So they buy the cheapest.
Arcing a shoe's friction material to the drum, and adjusting them properly from the get-go, are 2 steps that aren't required with discs.
The OEM world moved on to discs 50 years ago - skills fade away when those skills become no longer relevant.
Yes, there are some sketchy conversion kits out there, and/or ones that have earned a bad rap for low quality parts.
But that does not diminish that the physics of heat rejection of a disc brake is superior to a drum brake.
Funny... I'm ... OLD ... and was driving NEW cars starting in the late 60's, along with all my buddies. Not ONCE do I recall any of those issues with those vehicles. I had a New 1970 GTX with drums all around, a buddy had a Charger R/T with Disc Front. We basically street raced all the time and there was no noticeable difference in our stopping performance.
USSMOPAR
Active Member
Well it seems on here many have difficulty accepting that the proper use of modern brake lining materiel AND proper set up - a drum brake car will STOP! under duress. There is this thinking that only nos asbestos linings are what should be installed or junk was bought from RA or some auto parts store.
It may take a little more due diligence now to find a source for linings and arcing of the shoes to match the drums but it is not rocket science. There are 2 reliable material sources that have now been identified, use them. Rochester Clutch & Brake is the other.
As the OP complaints...proper choice of materials etc will reliably solve your stopping issues.
It may take a little more due diligence now to find a source for linings and arcing of the shoes to match the drums but it is not rocket science. There are 2 reliable material sources that have now been identified, use them. Rochester Clutch & Brake is the other.
As the OP complaints...proper choice of materials etc will reliably solve your stopping issues.
Just Carbs
Well-Known Member
The first problem is getting new drums that are round.
The second problem is finding someone to make the defective not round new drums round.
They may have been round when they were put in the box new, probably not. But after they sit on their sides on the shelf for decades, or get dropped on their sides by the shipper, they're ain't round no more. And who checks NOS drums before they ship them out?
So, without you got a brake lathe handy, you're **** out of luck.
Arcing the shoes? Piece of cake. Just run them around the sandpaper lined drum.
Third problem? Just how straight are the metal plates that the lining is attached to?
Get problems 1,2,3 fixed, and the car will stop with any lining. Except the early OLDS TORONADOS.
Don't fix problems 1,2,3 and the brakes will be running the show. All over the road.
The second problem is finding someone to make the defective not round new drums round.
They may have been round when they were put in the box new, probably not. But after they sit on their sides on the shelf for decades, or get dropped on their sides by the shipper, they're ain't round no more. And who checks NOS drums before they ship them out?
So, without you got a brake lathe handy, you're **** out of luck.
Arcing the shoes? Piece of cake. Just run them around the sandpaper lined drum.
Third problem? Just how straight are the metal plates that the lining is attached to?
Get problems 1,2,3 fixed, and the car will stop with any lining. Except the early OLDS TORONADOS.
Don't fix problems 1,2,3 and the brakes will be running the show. All over the road.
fury fan
Senior Member
The better the contact area you make between the drum and shoe, via turning and arcing, the more heat you can generate. Which equals a faster stop.
Which ironically leads to the main disadvantage of drum brakes - heat buildup causes the drum to enlarge in diameter (and/or bellmouth) and ruin that contact relationship that was perfected with lathing and arcing. Unless the shoe can distort to match the hot drum - but that absorbs some force from the wheel cylinder that should be used for braking.
So the faster you can stop - the sooner your brakes might fade?
I will concede that perhaps this reduced contact, but with the better friction material, might still perform better than before, though. Maybe only on stop #1, though.
I want to see data for how well they stop on #2 and 3 vs a comparable disc brake.
When the brake rotor enlarges from the heat - geometry/fitment of the pads to the rotor is unchanged.
And the drum brake heats on the inside, and must conduct it to the outside surface, while the rotor's hottest surfaces are directly exposed to cooling air.
So a brake rotor could theoretically not get hot (except on the braking surfaces) while a brake drum must get hotter throughout in order to shed heat.
So regardless of how optimized a drum brake is, it's inherent disadvantages to a disc brake are unchanged.
Oh, you could put the Fusey finned drums on a lighter Slab, or get 3"-wide front drums instead of 2-3/4", and get some additional improvement. But that's not what we're talking about here. And until someone can show me data that a drumbrake can outperform a disc brake on multiple heavy stops - I'm going with discs.
Which ironically leads to the main disadvantage of drum brakes - heat buildup causes the drum to enlarge in diameter (and/or bellmouth) and ruin that contact relationship that was perfected with lathing and arcing. Unless the shoe can distort to match the hot drum - but that absorbs some force from the wheel cylinder that should be used for braking.
So the faster you can stop - the sooner your brakes might fade?
I will concede that perhaps this reduced contact, but with the better friction material, might still perform better than before, though. Maybe only on stop #1, though.
I want to see data for how well they stop on #2 and 3 vs a comparable disc brake.
When the brake rotor enlarges from the heat - geometry/fitment of the pads to the rotor is unchanged.
And the drum brake heats on the inside, and must conduct it to the outside surface, while the rotor's hottest surfaces are directly exposed to cooling air.
So a brake rotor could theoretically not get hot (except on the braking surfaces) while a brake drum must get hotter throughout in order to shed heat.
So regardless of how optimized a drum brake is, it's inherent disadvantages to a disc brake are unchanged.
Oh, you could put the Fusey finned drums on a lighter Slab, or get 3"-wide front drums instead of 2-3/4", and get some additional improvement. But that's not what we're talking about here. And until someone can show me data that a drumbrake can outperform a disc brake on multiple heavy stops - I'm going with discs.
Just Carbs
Well-Known Member
I got a 67 Toronado with drum brakes. It stops just fine from 80, exactly one time. That's it, just one time. Then they are cooked and smoking. It's a disaster. Total fail.
The Toronados with disc do work much better. But even the factory disc aren't big enough for that 65/35 front heavy car. You get two stops with the disc. So, they are twice as good.
The finned rear drums from the 72 New Yorker work better on the 64 New Yorker front and rear than what came on the 64, but not enough better. So, I put late 70s Chrysler disc on the front, that fixed it.
The Toronados with disc do work much better. But even the factory disc aren't big enough for that 65/35 front heavy car. You get two stops with the disc. So, they are twice as good.
The finned rear drums from the 72 New Yorker work better on the 64 New Yorker front and rear than what came on the 64, but not enough better. So, I put late 70s Chrysler disc on the front, that fixed it.
FWD Look Fan
Member
Sixpactogo: I finally got it together to pull the booster. I'd say you are exactly correct. The visual evidence is compelling. It's nasty looking!
Thanks for you reply and for your advice. The booster is off for a rebuild.
I hope to have it back in time put the 300 together for Carlisle.
Good luck, and maybe I'll see you down the road.
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