413 “ service life”

[ab777]

I am new to the classic Mopar world with my recently acquired ‘65 Imperial and I am looking for some input from other c body and Mopar owners in general.

The car had been sitting for 5 years or so until I purchased it a few months ago. Prior to those 5 years I used to see this car running and driving to and from shows as I personally knew the owner. The odometer reads 13xxx but I have no way to verify it. The car obviously has a few leaks that need to be addressed and will need several components to be replaced.

Despite doing almost no work to get it running, the car runs pretty smooth with a minor vibration at idle which is obviously expected due to old coil, plug wires, etc, and there is absolutely no smoke coming out, and the engine sounds healthy with no unusual noises. I’ve also driven it down the road a couple times and I did not feel or hear something that could be off.


Some mechanics and shops have been telling me that since the car was sitting, it’s a good idea to rebuild the engine. Whereas others did not mention that it needs a rebuild. I will definitely get a compression test done, but this isn’t my first classic and I strongly believe and feel that the engine is healthy.

My question is, for those with the 413 or similar engines, what is the general expected life of such an engine, or problems to look out for, and any input in general would be appreciated. As I seriously can’t convince myself to get this engine rebuilt as there are no clear issues to be seen or heard and I personally know that prior to these 5 years this car was a turnkey driver.

 

[cbarge]

I am new to the classic Mopar world with my recently acquired ‘65 Imperial and I am looking for some input from other c body and Mopar owners in general.

The car had been sitting for 5 years or so until I purchased it a few months ago. Prior to those 5 years I used to see this car running and driving to and from shows as I personally knew the owner. The odometer reads 13xxx but I have no way to verify it. The car obviously has a few leaks that need to be addressed and will need several components to be replaced.

Despite doing almost no work to get it running, the car runs pretty smooth with a minor vibration at idle which is obviously expected due to old coil, plug wires, etc, and there is absolutely no smoke coming out, and the engine sounds healthy with no unusual noises. I’ve also driven it down the road a couple times and I did not feel or hear something that could be off.


Some mechanics and shops have been telling me that since the car was sitting, it’s a good idea to rebuild the engine. Whereas others did not mention that it needs a rebuild. I will definitely get a compression test done, but this isn’t my first classic and I strongly believe and feel that the engine is healthy.

My question is, for those with the 413 or similar engines, what is the general expected life of such an engine, or problems to look out for, and any input in general would be appreciated. As I seriously can’t convince myself to get this engine rebuilt as there are no clear issues to be seen or heard and I personally know that prior to these 5 years this car was a turnkey driver.

With any engine, 413 or any other, that sat dormant for any lo g period of time the risk of STUCK PISTON RINGS is very high.
Sure it runs and drives but monitor the engine oil. The engine can burn it through the exhaust yet you may or may not not see any visible smoke. Blow-by is also possible.
Assuming the mileage is at 113k a basic rebuild is a good idea. Fresh rings and bearings, hot tank the block and give it a honing will wake her up and ready for another 113k. Lol.

 

[ab777]

With any engine, 413 or any other, that sat dormant for any lo g period of time the risk of STUCK PISTON RINGS is very high.
Sure it runs and drives but monitor the engine oil. The engine can burn it through the exhaust yet you may or may not not see any visible smoke. Blow-by is also possible.
Assuming the mileage is at 113k a basic rebuild is a good idea. Fresh rings and bearings, hot tank the block and give it a honing will wake her up and ready for another 113k. Lol.

Makes sense, the oil hasn’t decreased since I had it changed. But I guess the compression test will be a good idea as that can tell what might be going on.

 

[CBODY67]

Personally, I would be concerned about the timing chain, if it has been replaced or not. Past that, everything sounds more normal than not.

Chrysler V-8s never would idle as steady and smooth as a Ford FE (352/390/etc.) engine would. Still smooth, but not "dead silent" smooth.

Ultimate durability? In a 1967-era dyno test of a 383, the engine increased power until it got to about 415 horsepower, then nothing they did to it would increase power . . . UNTIL they pulled it apart and "clearanced" the pistons. Their comments were that "Chrysler set them up tight for a long life", which made sense to me. We put over 150K miles on our '66 Newport 383 with only one burnt valve and timing chain change.

To me, the real measure of "how wore out it might be" would be to watch the engine oil level, with oil consumption in the range of 3000miles/qt meaning "It's FINE as is". It was also somewhat common for some Chrysler V-8s to "kick out" the first quart and then the level would stabilize for the rest of the oil change interval (OEM was 4000miles, back then) or thereabouts. ONLY way you'll find out these things is to drive the car!

IF you want to generate "numbers", do the compression test, BUT that will only work for the seal at the top (compression) ring and will have no bearing on oil consumption. I'd be more concerned about it needing a valve job due to worn valve guides! IF you can get access to a diagnostic machine that has a "cylinder killer" function, where each cylinder can be killed to check for rpm variations (think dynamic compression test), that is a lot easier and cleaner to do than a traditional compression test. Others might mention a "leak down" test, but that will only generate "numbers" as far as I am concerned. To me, I would not pass judgment on the engine UNTIL at least 6000 miles from now.

BUT I WOULD inquire with the owner if the timing chan set has been replaced. Even if it is a true 15K mile car! The plastic on the cam sprocket is still 60 years old from new, which means that cracks and fissures can result. When they happen, nothing good will result. Best to change them now and get that part out of the way, for "iinsurance purposes" against possible future failures.

IF you desire to invest in a complete engine rebuild, that's fine, BUT I'd wait until next winter to do that. That way you will have enough time to drive and get acquainted with the car! Rather than "condemning" the engine just because "it's old". AND you'll also have time to find a good machine shop down there, too. Bad thing is that with a rebuilt engine, it might not idle any better than what it now does, IF that is a big concern.

IF you are worried about "stuck piston rings", Scotty Kilmer (on his YouTube channel) demonstrated a 505CRF product that went into the motor oil for that expressed purpose. Seemed to work very well. Just like the fuel system cleaner from the same company.

I don't recall if you also changed the ATF and rear axle lube too? If not, do them too, soon.

Enjoy!
CBODY67

 

[ab777]

Personally, I would be concerned about the timing chain, if it has been replaced or not. Past that, everything sounds more normal than not.

Chrysler V-8s never would idle as steady and smooth as a Ford FE (352/390/etc.) engine would. Still smooth, but not "dead silent" smooth.

Ultimate durability? In a 1967-era dyno test of a 383, the engine increased power until it got to about 415 horsepower, then nothing they did to it would increase power . . . UNTIL they pulled it apart and "clearanced" the pistons. Their comments were that "Chrysler set them up tight for a long life", which made sense to me. We put over 150K miles on our '66 Newport 383 with only one burnt valve and timing chain change.

To me, the real measure of "how wore out it might be" would be to watch the engine oil level, with oil consumption in the range of 3000miles/qt meaning "It's FINE as is". It was also somewhat common for some Chrysler V-8s to "kick out" the first quart and then the level would stabilize for the rest of the oil change interval (OEM was 4000miles, back then) or thereabouts. ONLY way you'll find out these things is to drive the car!

IF you want to generate "numbers", do the compression test, BUT that will only work for the seal at the top (compression) ring and will have no bearing on oil consumption. I'd be more concerned about it needing a valve job due to worn valve guides! IF you can get access to a diagnostic machine that has a "cylinder killer" function, where each cylinder can be killed to check for rpm variations (think dynamic compression test), that is a lot easier and cleaner to do than a traditional compression test. Others might mention a "leak down" test, but that will only generate "numbers" as far as I am concerned. To me, I would not pass judgment on the engine UNTIL at least 6000 miles from now.

BUT I WOULD inquire with the owner if the timing chan set has been replaced. Even if it is a true 15K mile car! The plastic on the cam sprocket is still 60 years old from new, which means that cracks and fissures can result. When they happen, nothing good will result. Best to change them now and get that part out of the way, for "iinsurance purposes" against possible future failures.

IF you desire to invest in a complete engine rebuild, that's fine, BUT I'd wait until next winter to do that. That way you will have enough time to drive and get acquainted with the car! Rather than "condemning" the engine just because "it's old". AND you'll also have time to find a good machine shop down there, too. Bad thing is that with a rebuilt engine, it might not idle any better than what it now does, IF that is a big concern.

IF you are worried about "stuck piston rings", Scotty Kilmer (on his YouTube channel) demonstrated a 505CRF product that went into the motor oil for that expressed purpose. Seemed to work very well. Just like the fuel system cleaner from the same company.

I don't recall if you also changed the ATF and rear axle lube too? If not, do them too, soon.

Enjoy!
CBODY67

Thanks for all the info! I am pretty sure that the timing chain was not replaced at all. My goal was to replace it along with the gaskets all over the engine as well as new fuel pump, carb rebuild, water pump, plugs and wires, radiator and all that good stuff.

You have also said my thoughts, as I was thinking of driving the car after doing some work to it to see how it does in terms of oil consumption and how it performs in general.

I have even taken off the breather cap but thankfully no smoke has come out of it nor the exhaust.

 

[57fury440]

If the engine is running good, why rebuild it? It is easy to spend other people's money. Do a tune up and drive it. Replacing the timing chain is a good idea. If it does not smoke, runs good and does not use any oil, leave it alone.

 

[Big_John]

Thanks for all the info! I am pretty sure that the timing chain was not replaced at all. My goal was to replace it along with the gaskets all over the engine as well as new fuel pump, carb rebuild, water pump, plugs and wires, radiator and all that good stuff.

You have also said my thoughts, as I was thinking of driving the car after doing some work to it to see how it does in terms of oil consumption and how it performs in general.

I have even taken off the breather cap but thankfully no smoke has come out of it nor the exhaust.

One thing... New isn't necessarily better than the used OEM on the car. For example, if the radiator needs help, have it recored as your new options are limited and you don't want to put a cheap aluminum radiator in a nice Imperial.

Since you are taking it to a mechanic, they are going to suggest replacing everything because that's how they make money and in theory, it sounds good to have "new" throughout the car. It's a shotgun approach though and the new stuff is generally made offshore and often not as reliable.

Change the plugs and wires (I suggest Lectric Limited | GM Mopar Ford Corvette Wiring Harnesses / Spark Plug Wires / Battery Cables / Switches), antifreeze, fan belts and hoses. Check the points and change just the points if needed as the new condensers tend to be junk. Check the timing chain and then drive it and see what happens.

 

[66fs]

Don't "fix" what isn't broke. I can agree on a double roller timing set, timing gasket set, Fel-Pro positive valve seals, fresh oil and oil filter, fresh anti-freeze, Taylor Spiro-Pro spark plug wires, platinum plugs, Hoses and belts, and run it. It will probably run forever.

 

[halifaxhops]

Big difference between 13K and 113K. Look around for stuff like brake peadal pad wear, and alos the steering wheel. Hoses and other rubber should be Mopar if it is 13K. Definately do a comp test if all are basically even must replace the rubber stuff, and do a tune up. Run from parts store points and Condensers.

 

[CBODY67]

ONE thing to be sure to replace is ALL of the rubber hose sections between the fuel tank sending unit and the carburetor. Even if they might look good on the outside, ethanol'd fuel will remove the oils from the rubber from the inside out. Eventually, the outer sections get dry and crack and fall off . . . which means "fuel leak". Find some quality Gates Green Stripe fuel line hoses of the correct diameter.

I strongly concur on "New is not always better", especially as things have progressed into the global supply chain era. Including, but not limited to, the current batch of "aluminum radiators" that now seem to be popular. Stay with OEM-style.

As to Imperials, there is also the Online Imperial Club, nationally, and there should be a Houston-area Mopar club, too. The original Houston Mopar club started in the middle 1970s or so. Same with the San Antonio Mopar group. Google can be a friend in finding these groups.

Enjoy!
CBODY67

 

[413]

If it runs good then go with it. Yep, Mechanics trying to find a customer for their services.

You have no idea if the speedo was ever changed or car run with speedo cable off. So don't take the dash mileage as full truth.

Ever tried finding 413 pistons? Not that easy today. And if it's anything like a 440 cast pistons they will provide a whopping 8:1 compression ratio. Not good.

The fuel hose to get today that will stand up to ethanol fuel is called Gates Barricade fuel hose.

 

[ab777]

One thing... New isn't necessarily better than the used OEM on the car. For example, if the radiator needs help, have it recored as your new options are limited and you don't want to put a cheap aluminum radiator in a nice Imperial.

Since you are taking it to a mechanic, they are going to suggest replacing everything because that's how they make money and in theory, it sounds good to have "new" throughout the car. It's a shotgun approach though and the new stuff is generally made offshore and often not as reliable.

Change the plugs and wires (I suggest Lectric Limited | GM Mopar Ford Corvette Wiring Harnesses / Spark Plug Wires / Battery Cables / Switches), antifreeze, fan belts and hoses. Check the points and change just the points if needed as the new condensers tend to be junk. Check the timing chain and then drive it and see what happens.

Absolutely, I actually have an extra NOS radiator for it that I will be swapping it out with for now. As mine is leaking from several areas.

 

[66fs]

... Ever tried finding 413 pistons? Not that easy today. And if it's anything like a 440 cast pistons they will provide a whopping 8:1 compression ratio. Not good...

I doubt 413 pistons would be that low. I think 413 were all at least 10:1. They were never a smog motor, so I would hope they would not do that to us...

 

[Milo]

You can somewhat check the timing chain by removing the dist cap and moving the crankshaft back and forth with a breaker bar at the front bolt,and see if the rotor moves with it or lags some

 

[413]

I doubt 413 pistons would be that low. I think 413 were all at least 10:1. They were never a smog motor, so I would hope they would not do that to us...

What we think they should be and what they make is two different things.

I'm telling ya good compression ratio oversized replacement 413 pistons are not an easy thing to get. Discontinued due to low sales. The masses in the mopar hobby spread the word on 413's having shrouded valves due to the small bore compared to a 440 so nobody wanted them for a BB swap. So they didn't sell pistons

 

[66furys]

My 66 383 was in similar shape, and sat for decades and who knows miles. After much work on the car to get er to run, I agree entirely with timing chain.....just do it. Mine would almost touch itself when squeezed together, and engine ran. Mine has no oil smoke, no breather smoke, and runs fine after all these years. Yes, could be better with newer parts like new heads, more compression, etc. But, when I launch the car, it goes pretty well. Auto trans has a few glitches in shifting, but works, esp when I launch with manual shift. This car rides as I remember all the ones I drove back in the day...the main thing I notice is a bit of float on the road. New shocks on front only so far, but the car is great. Agree with all above, do the basic needs and drive it to figure out the rest. My one and only comment is try to get the best repro parts you can, not just cheapest, and be careful of new wiring connectors, as the chinese junk will let you down. I have had issues with chinese ign switch, fuel pump, fuel hose, electrical connectors as well as soy wires, and on it goes. Get best you can and look at sources.

 

[cudamark]

First step....compression test and oil pressure test (assuming it's currently in running shape)
If it passes both, new timing set and a reseal. Then tune it up and run it.
If it need a valve job or oil pressure is iffy, pull it apart and rebuild it.
One other thing I'd look at closely is for external block cracks. I've seen quite a few low mileage virgin 413 blocks and even good running engines with cracks in the block that went into the side freeze plugs. You can usually see some tell-tale coolant ooze in those spots. If the engine is out, you can also magnaflux those areas to verify.

 

[wyrmrider]

lots of good ideas
compression
timing chain
any smoke on and off the gas with an observer following then valve stem seals can be done in the car AS CAN SPRINGS
belts and hoses vac hoses
Might as well use ATF+4 as you know what U are getting unlike "DEX III adjust the bands
bleed the brakes flush the brakes
drive it

 

[66fs]

What we think they should be and what they make is two different things.

I'm telling ya good compression ratio oversized replacement 413 pistons are not an easy thing to get. Discontinued due to low sales. The masses in the mopar hobby spread the word on 413's having shrouded valves due to the small bore compared to a 440 so nobody wanted them for a BB swap. So they didn't sell pistons

At that price, I'd be looking at custom pistons and get what I wanted. That small bore nonsense does not work for me. You will be able to get 413 pistons because of the Max Wedges that run in Stock and Super Stock class racing. They might cost a little more.

Egge Piston Set with Pins - Egge Machine

1959-64 Chrysler 413cid, 8cyl, 4.187 Bore, Piston Set

egge.com

 

[300rag]

At that price, I'd be looking at custom pistons and get what I wanted. That small bore nonsense does not work for me. You will be able to get 413 pistons because of the Max Wedges that run in Stock and Super Stock class racing. They might cost a little more.

Egge Piston Set with Pins - Egge Machine

1959-64 Chrysler 413cid, 8cyl, 4.187 Bore, Piston Set

egge.com

That's what went into my 413...