2 essential Problems: no starting , no charging

[Stoffauge]

Good morning fellas! Got two bigger problems with my wiring that got totally screwed up by previous owner (wrong cable colors or the colors change and are connected with wrong cables, connections gone, list goes on)

1: car doesn’t start by key turn : the car starts by bridging the starter relay with a screwdriver . new starter relay and cables checked . Yellow signal cable that comes from ign switch works. I turn the key and 0,7 volts show up . Should be enough to activate the relay. BUT how do I measure the cable that comes from the transmission (yellow black)? I guess there’s no signal that tells trans is in park or neutral so that the relay doesn’t get activated. Because all other 3/4 connections if the relay work . Where is the ignition ballast located?

Any advices ?

2: Battery doesn’t load: new alternator installed. One green one blue cable go to the fld connections (does it matter on what fld what cable goes ?) the big battery connection connects with the same cable that goes from the battery to the starter ( doesn’t look right, self made stuff ) . One black cable not connected that comes from the plug where the blue one connects too and the wiring plan says it needs to go to the distr solenoid but I can find the place where it should connect ?!

Any help appreciated . Sry but it’s all messed up like s...t....

 

[mr. fix it]

I would be checking the firewall block leading into the interior to start with.

This is a common place that fails over time.

 

[Stoffauge]

I did that already.....all cables that are in need for starting process are fine or at least the connection through the bulkhead connector. But yes, thats a common place for bad connections....

 

[mr. fix it]

I did that already.....all cables that are in need for starting process are fine or at least the connection through the bulkhead connector. But yes, thats a common place for bad connections....

Try pulling the ignition switch then and jumpering the starter from there.

This should give you an indication to the condition of the wiring leading out under the hood.

Even if it cranks then it could be the switch itself or wiring that is plugged into the firewall block incorrectly.

 

[Stoffauge]

Thats a good Idea or what my actual guess is, that the autotransmission switch is broken. I would just ground the br/y cable that goes from relay to trans and see if it cranks. Because the positive yellow cable that comes from the ign switch works and sends a 0,7 Volt signal to the relay if I turn the key....

 

[Big_John]

Because the positive yellow cable that comes from the ign switch works and sends a 0,7 Volt signal to the relay if I turn the key

You should have a full 12 volts to the relay from the ignition switch.

A little language interpretation here so we are on the same page and everyone understands... You are saying 0,7 or .7 volts (as we write in US) as in seven tenths of one volt, correct? That's would indicate an issue with the wiring or ignition switch.

Regarding the alternator. You have two connections on the alternator and one wire going to the field and one larger wire going to the stud, correct? Or are there two field wires and one larger wire?

It always helps to list what year and make car. The alternator changed to an isolated field in 1970 and there are issues if you mix and match the alternators.

Regarding the ignition ballast. If your car is starting and running by jumping the relay, your ballast is good.

 

[Stoffauge]

Alright. Sorry fpor the missing information. 71 Sport Fury Super Commando. Got two FLD wires and one big on a stud that connects to the battery . Maybe i switched the two fld wires or one isn´t grounded properly?! The big cable goes into the same cable that goes to the starter relay. But the wiring plan from FSM tells it should go through the bulkhead connector. Thats what confuses me. In addtion is the black cable thats on the same connection on the alternator like the blue wire doesn´t connect to the dist solenoid because one part of the wire is missing. I meassured the volts of the battery while running/revving the engine and it stays at 12,7 volts but should be at around 14 volts when it gets charged properly right? Alternator is NEW by the way so should be wiring.

 

[Stoffauge]

Whats meant by "No 1 Splice"?

And what do the numbers stand for? It´s just different to german wiring plans from german cars....

 

[Big_John]

View attachment 372673

Whats meant by "No 1 Splice"?

View attachment 372674

And what do the numbers stand for? It´s just different to german wiring plans from german cars....

The circled numbers are the welded splices. Basically, the factory would "weld" the wires together with a spot welder and that would join that circuit together.

The other numbers: Example R6-10BK R6 is the circuit number. 10 is the wire gauge (or size) and BK is a black wire.

 

[Big_John]

Alright. Sorry fpor the missing information. 71 Sport Fury Super Commando. Got two FLD wires and one big on a stud that connects to the battery . Maybe i switched the two fld wires or one isn´t grounded properly?! The big cable goes into the same cable that goes to the starter relay. But the wiring plan from FSM tells it should go through the bulkhead connector. Thats what confuses me. In addtion is the black cable thats on the same connection on the alternator like the blue wire doesn´t connect to the dist solenoid because one part of the wire is missing. I meassured the volts of the battery while running/revving the engine and it stays at 12,7 volts but should be at around 14 volts when it gets charged properly right? Alternator is NEW by the way so should be wiring.

OK, you can switch those two field wires without any issue.

I just looked at the FSM diagram and yes, that should large wire from the alternator joins with the wire (splice #2) going to the starter relay. That is correct. The wire also goes through the bulkhead connector.

The dark blue field wire should splice (Splice #1) with wires going to the ballast resistor, voltage regulator and through the bulkhead connector to the ignition switch.

 

[Big_John]

The green field wire from the alternator goes directly to the voltage regulator.

 

[Big_John]

In addtion is the black cable thats on the same connection on the alternator like the blue wire doesn´t connect to the dist solenoid because one part of the wire is missing

This took me a few minutes to figure this out..

The distributor solenoid is an emissions feature that was on the high performance 440. That won't make any difference with your issues now. I'm not 100% clear, but it either advances or retards the advance as needed. It has nothing to do with the charging system or ignition system

My recommendation is you work on one system at a time. If it were me, I would start with the ignition switch issues. You should be getting 12 volts to the starter relay. That needs to be addressed first. Other problems may fall in line.

 

[Big_John]

I meassured the volts of the battery while running/revving the engine and it stays at 12,7 volts but should be at around 14 volts when it gets charged properly right? Alternator is NEW by the way so should be wiring.

Yes, you should have 14 volts. Since you've already changed the alternator and we assume that's good, and you are sure everything is connected correctly, it's probably a safe bet that the voltage regulator is bad. We can do an easy test, but I think that you need to verify the wiring first and then we'll address how to do the test. Too much info might confuse everything right now.

 

[stubs300]

Whats meant by "No 1 Splice"?

View attachment 372674..

STOP, STOP!! That picture shows the modern style of Voltage Reg. The wiring is totally different for the older style Regs. What year car are you working on?? Study this page for your charging issues and your wiring. Good Luck
charging system overview

 

[Big_John]

STOP, STOP!! That picture shows the modern style of Voltage Reg. The wiring is totally different for the older style Regs. What year car are you working on?? Study this page for your charging issues and your wiring. Good Luck
charging system overview

He said '71 Sport Fury in one of the posts.

 

[Stoffauge]

OK, you can switch those two field wires without any issue.

I just looked at the FSM diagram and yes, that should large wire from the alternator joins with the wire (splice #2) going to the starter relay. That is correct. The wire also goes through the bulkhead connector.

The dark blue field wire should splice (Splice #1) with wires going to the ballast resistor, voltage regulator and through the bulkhead connector to the ignition switch.

Hey guys! Big thank you for all of your help. Fixed the ignition issue today and could start it via key for the first time I got this car! What a feeling. SO many weird wiring stuff going on so it takes some time.

Alright. I figured i don´t even have a connection on my carter avs carb for a plug coming from the dist. solenoid so we can stop thinking about that for now.

Generator brand new and properly installed (not that hard actually). It´s connected like the one was before. 2 FLD wires and one big on a stud that goes to the battery. I checked the continuity of almost every cable that has to do with the charging system and all of them are fine, like the blue one that works all the way up to the ign switch. Gonna do that again just to make sure and will follow all the way through like you guys described. If all wires are fine we can check the voltage regulator (because the car runs great so the ballast resistor should be fine doesnt it?). Voltage Reg sits on the firewall next to the starter or where can I find it? Tomorrow I´ll keep on working and hope to find and solve that issue

@ Big John would like to hear how to test the volt. reg if you don´t mind

 

[3175375]

Hey guys! Big thank you for all of your help. Fixed the ignition issue today and could start it via key for the first time I got this car! What a feeling. SO many weird wiring stuff going on so it takes some time.

Alright. I figured i don´t even have a connection on my carter avs carb for a plug coming from the dist. solenoid so we can stop thinking about that for now.

Generator brand new and properly installed (not that hard actually). It´s connected like the one was before. 2 FLD wires and one big on a stud that goes to the battery. I checked the continuity of almost every cable that has to do with the charging system and all of them are fine, like the blue one that works all the way up to the ign switch. Gonna do that again just to make sure and will follow all the way through like you guys described. If all wires are fine we can check the voltage regulator (because the car runs great so the ballast resistor should be fine doesnt it?). Voltage Reg sits on the firewall next to the starter or where can I find it? Tomorrow I´ll keep on working and hope to find and solve that issue

@ Big John would like to hear how to test the volt. reg if you don´t mind

Way to go!
So you say that you solved the ignition issue, but didn’t tell us what was wrong and/or what you fixed!

 

[Big_John]

Hey guys! Big thank you for all of your help. Fixed the ignition issue today and could start it via key for the first time I got this car! What a feeling. SO many weird wiring stuff going on so it takes some time.

Alright. I figured i don´t even have a connection on my carter avs carb for a plug coming from the dist. solenoid so we can stop thinking about that for now.

Generator brand new and properly installed (not that hard actually). It´s connected like the one was before. 2 FLD wires and one big on a stud that goes to the battery. I checked the continuity of almost every cable that has to do with the charging system and all of them are fine, like the blue one that works all the way up to the ign switch. Gonna do that again just to make sure and will follow all the way through like you guys described. If all wires are fine we can check the voltage regulator (because the car runs great so the ballast resistor should be fine doesnt it?). Voltage Reg sits on the firewall next to the starter or where can I find it? Tomorrow I´ll keep on working and hope to find and solve that issue

@ Big John would like to hear how to test the volt. reg if you don´t mind

It takes a while. You can only eat an elephant one bite at a time.

OK.. To check the alternator and voltage regulator.

You'll need to make a jumper wire. One end will have a spade terminal that can attach to one of the field connections on the alternator. The other end is optional. The idea is to attach it to a good ground connection. I like using an alligator clip.

Unplug the green wire from the field connection. Leave everything else attached. Clip your jumper wire to the field connection on the alternator and the other end to a good ground.

Attach a voltmeter to the battery and check the voltage. It should be a little over 12 volts.

Start the car and immediately turn the headlights on.

Check the voltage at the battery. It should be at least 14 volts. Most likely it will be over that if the alternator is working right. If it is, the voltage regulator (or the wiring to the VR) is bad. If it's still at 12 volts, or less than 14 volts, the alternator is bad.

Do not run the car for an extended period like this as it can damage the battery.

What we've done here is duplicate the FSM procedure, except we aren't using a carbon pile to create a load of the system. We are using the lights instead.

 

[Stoffauge]

Way to go!
So you say that you solved the ignition issue, but didn’t tell us what was wrong and/or what you fixed!

I am sorry for that......checked all wires and bridged just to get close to this bad broken boy.......fixed that by bendind a little the brackets inside.....holds properly now but gonna watch it closely and might replace anyways.

I am sorry again.

 

[Stoffauge]

It takes a while. You can only eat an elephant one bite at a time.

OK.. To check the alternator and voltage regulator.

You'll need to make a jumper wire. One end will have a spade terminal that can attach to one of the field connections on the alternator. The other end is optional. The idea is to attach it to a good ground connection. I like using an alligator clip.

Unplug the green wire from the field connection. Leave everything else attached. Clip your jumper wire to the field connection on the alternator and the other end to a good ground.

Attach a voltmeter to the battery and check the voltage. It should be a little over 12 volts.

Start the car and immediately turn the headlights on.

Check the voltage at the battery. It should be at least 14 volts. Most likely it will be over that if the alternator is working right. If it is, the voltage regulator (or the wiring to the VR) is bad. If it's still at 12 volts, or less than 14 volts, the alternator is bad.

Do not run the car for an extended period like this as it can damage the battery.

What we've done here is duplicate the FSM procedure, except we aren't using a carbon pile to create a load of the system. We are using the lights instead.

alright sounds absolutely doable.....i don´t have any big "consumer" installed, front is totally apart. But i can figure it out to make it work. The alternator is brand new so I guess/hope/think it´s working and it´s something else.