60 413 engine 8 bolt flange no flex plate crank swap for 6 bolt flange 62 up crank

[Koolkar60]

Hello , I just want to verify a 62 model 413 engine 6 bolt flange crankshaft for use with its flexplate for a 62 up aluminum Torqueflite , will drop into the 60 model 413 engine in my 60 Imperial , in place of its 8 bolt flange crankshaft / w / no flexplate used with its cast iron 61 and back cast iron Torqueflite. From what I can tell it should swap out , of course with new bearings and rear main seal . The cast iron pushbutton Torqueflite has lost reverse . I have a newly overhauled 62 up aluminum Torqueflite from a 62 Imperial parts car I no longer own. . Parts are readily available and far cheaper for aluminum Torqueflites if ever needed in the future , but cast iron Torqueflite parts , especially hard parts , if needed are scarce and expensive . Both have the rear drum park brake and no park pawl , so will swap easily other than the crankshaft . I have a couple of the 62 up gear reduction starters to use with the aluminum Tflite . 63 up they put a cable operated park pawl in the aluminum Torqueflites , and added park mechanisms to the rear drum brakes . Thanks for the help .

 

[MONC440]

Are you swapping the entire engine or just want to swap the crankshaft? I just want to make sure I understand what you are asking. If you are swapping the crank I assume it would bolt in but I would do some research on the weight of early pistons vs the year of the crank you are swapping in. You don't want to run into a balance issue.

 

[CBODY67]

The balance issue can be a valid one. I do suspect that as both 413s are basically the same, as to pistons, the '62 balance could work well with the '61 balance. Check the FSMs for OEM piston weights, in the engine specs section.

CBODY67

 

[413]

Yes the crank will swap in there, but the engine should be balanced. So now you are talking a complete rebuild of the 413. How far do you go? New cam &lifters or reuse them? Put hard seats in the heads and stainless valves?

If 413 needs rebuild anyway fine. But if it runs good as is, then fixing the cast iron trans is in order. Most of the time it's a seal failure and no hard parts will be needed.

The FSM Doesn't have piston or reciprocating weight.

 

[Koolkar60]

Are you swapping the entire engine or just want to swap the crankshaft? I just want to make sure I understand what you are asking. If you are swapping the crank I assume it would bolt in but I would do some research on the weight of early pistons vs the year of the crank you are swapping in. You don't want to run into a balance issue.

Just the crankshaft so I can use the flexplate with the aluminum Torqueflite.

 

[57fury440]

It can be done, but you are throwing the dice on a balance issue. I helped a friend do what you are talking about with the crank. His motor was a 1960 and he swapped in a crank from a 1965 or 1966 New Yorker. The difference is that while he had the crank out, he had it drilled out and we installed a 4-speed. He didn't have any issues with it being out of balance and he ran a cam and used to shift out of first in the 6,000 RPM range. He may have been lucky. We were both in our very early twenties and never even thought about balance being an issue. The car was a 1958 Plymouth.

 

[57fury440]

One question. What are your plans for the car? If it is just for the street, have the cast iron Torqueflite rebuilt and drive it. They are good transmissions, a little heavy, but good.

 

[MONC440]

If you have the rods and pistons from the 62 engine you could swap out the entire rotating assembly.

 

[Koolkar60]

Yes the crank will swap in there, but the engine should be balanced. So now you are talking a complete rebuild of the 413. How far do you go? New cam &lifters or reuse them? Put hard seats in the heads and stainless valves?

If 413 needs rebuild anyway fine. But if it runs good as is, then fixing the cast iron trans is in order. Most of the time it's a seal failure and no hard parts will be needed.

The FSM Doesn't have piston or reciprocating weight.

The engine runs good . The previous owner got the car from his relative that had owned it over 30 years , he said the car always ran and drove good for them but they parked it when the transmission lost reverse . I have a newly overhauled also pushbutton aluminum 62 Torqueflite . I don’t mind having a look at the internals on the cast iron Tflite if no hard parts are needed great I have no objection to using the cast iron unit . I am trying to find where I saw another fellow also had a good 413 , he swapped just the crankshaft , put in new bearings and timing chain , and swapped in the aluminum Torqueflite with no other issues . I have the 6 bolt flange crankshaft in a 62 413 long block from a parts car .

My formerly ample project car budget became severely limited after my wife developed serious heart problems a year ago and is no longer able to work , her heart is okay , but she does require supplemental oxygen 24/7 now . We have a home oxygen machine , and I traded mechanical work for an excellent Inogen backpack oxygen machine with multiple battery packs that got her mobility back . I originally bought the car for us to have a comfortable car with dual A/C to stay cool traveling in the hot Texas summers . I am not going to give up on this car just don’t have the margins in the budget like we used to . My early Hemi rat wrecker is great fun for short local jaunts , but I truly love this Imperial just need to fix it as economically as possible . Before my wife became ill , I had already acquired a Mirror Matic tube operated automatic dimmer inside mirror , a newly overhauled Autronic eye automatic headlight dimmer , a completely overhauled 73 C body Sure Grip 3.23 rear axle with slip off rear drums in lieu of the tapered rear axle open diff , rebuilt the 200v AC power supply to restore the cool glow of its Panelescent instrument illumination , a complete Auto Pilot cruise control set up , and swivel seats . I want it to be a loaded example of Mopar engineering excellence of that era far superior to its competitors. I still lack doing the easy front disc brake and dual master cylinder swap for safe consistent stops in the crazy traffic nowadays. I grew up with drum brakes but prefer front discs .

 

[Koolkar60]

One question. What are your plans for the car? If it is just for the street, have the cast iron Torqueflite rebuilt and drive it. They are good transmissions, a little heavy, but good.

A regular comfortable street driver car not a show car .

 

[Koolkar60]

I

If you have the rods and pistons from the 62 engine you could swap out the entire rotating assembly.

I do have a 62 long block 413 out of a non running parts car . The heads on the 60 413 have been done in the past .

 

[MONC440]

I

I do have a 62 long block 413 out of a non running parts car . The heads on the 60 413 have been done in the past .

Well there you go. Use the entire rotating assembly out of the 62 in your 60 block. Lightly hone the cylinders and use new rings and bearings. Use your 60 heads and you will be good to go.

BTW sorry about your wife’s illness. My projects are always taking a backseat to live issues.

 

[Finsinthemirror]

That is a ton of work for some big uncertain if's. You should use the entire 62 drivetrain engine and transmission. Look into Imperial Services for advice on getting a custom transmission cable to do your swap. I wouldn't swap internal engine parts swaps without having a competent machine shop doing so.. it's far easier taking the newer drivetrain and putting that in entirely.
https://www.imperialservices.net/

 

[57fury440]

I don't get it, how is all that going to be less money than having the cast iron tranny rebuilt? There used be adapters made that could bolt a modern tranny to the 1961 and older blocks. I don't know if anyone sells or makes them anymore.

 

[twostick]

No reverse is usually a rear band issue.

I'm assuming it shifts all forward gears OK?

I would drop the pan and verify 2 things.

1, that the rear band adjuster hasn't come loose and backed off. In any case, adjust it to spec. If the band itself isn't worn out or broken, it should adjust ok.

2, that the shifter cable is adjusted correctly. The cable pulls for 1st and pushes for Reverse. Reverse should be all the way out and the rooster comb on the valve body should be rotated to the last detent. If the other selector positions were OK, ie the car doesn't move in Neutral and when 1 is selected, it holds 1st and doesn't upshift, cable adjustment is probably not your problem.

If the band adjuster looks OK but it takes a lot more to bottom the adjuster than the instructions say it needs to be backed out, you've likely found your problem.

Kevin

 

[Koolkar60]

That is a ton of work for some big uncertain if's. You should use the entire 62 drivetrain engine and transmission. Look into Imperial Services for advice on getting a custom transmission cable to do your swap. I wouldn't swap internal engine parts swaps without having a competent machine shop doing so.. it's far easier taking the newer drivetrain and putting that in entirely.
https://www.imperialservices.net/

I agree , if the cast iron Tflite hard parts are okay and can be repaired with a regular master overhaul kit and bands , that’s what I’ll do to keep it all original . If not , and I have to pull the engine , I might as well just bite the bullet and have the unknown parts car 62 engine checked , if it’s usable , I’ll have the short block redone , and fresh valve job done on the 62 heads , if the 62 heads are bad , I’ll use the known good heads from the 60 413. Hopefully , the cast iron Tflite just needs a regular overhaul , problem solved I’ll use it and no engine removal will be necessary . That will be the fastest and least expensive way, far easier and quicker than swapping cranks or engines

If I’m going to have to pull the engine though , I might as well end up with both a freshened up 62 engine and use the overhauled 62 aluminum Tflite transmission in the car together . I can save a bit by assembling the prepped block and heads myself , and prefer to do that anyway to know everything was done correctly.

No transmission cable adapters would be needed , both the 60 cast iron and 62 aluminum Torqueflites use the same shift cable connected to the pushbuttons , and both have the same foot operated cable to the drum parking brake , neither of the 60 or 62 Tflites has a Park pawl .

The 63 up Tflites added a separate Park lever on the dash to operate a cable operated Park Pawl mechanism on the tail shaft, and used the same shift cable from the pushbuttons to the transmission . The 63 up models used cable operated rear drum park brakes The pushbutton 64 T Flite in my Rat wrecker coupled to its 54 Dodge 241 Hemi has that set up , a Park lever on the Valiant control panel to operate the cable to the Park pawl , and the shift cable connected to the pushbuttons to select the gear desired . I used a diff mounted mechanical disk park brake on my rat that works well.

 

[Koolkar60]

No reverse is usually a rear band issue.

I'm assuming it shifts all forward gears OK?

I would drop the pan and verify 2 things.

1, that the rear band adjuster hasn't come loose and backed off. In any case, adjust it to spec. If the band itself isn't worn out or broken, it should adjust ok.

2, that the shifter cable is adjusted correctly. The cable pulls for 1st and pushes for Reverse. Reverse should be all the way out and the rooster comb on the valve body should be rotated to the last detent. If the other selector positions were OK, ie the car doesn't move in Neutral and when 1 is selected, it holds 1st and doesn't upshift, cable adjustment is probably not your problem.

If the band adjuster looks OK but it takes a lot more to bottom the adjuster than the instructions say it needs to be backed out, you've likely found your problem.

Kevin

Forward gears are okay , That is exactly what I will do , if the cast iron Tflite just needs a regular overhaul kit and bands , fixing it will be the least expensive way to get the car back on the road .Thank you .

 

[Koolkar60]

Well there you go. Use the entire rotating assembly out of the 62 in your 60 block. Lightly hone the cylinders and use new rings and bearings. Use your 60 heads and you will be good to go.

BTW sorry about your wife’s illness. My projects are always taking a backseat to live issues.

Thank you life can change in an instant . I still have her and a 60 Imperial . Both needed a bit of work , she is doing okay , and hopefully with any luck just fixing the cast iron Tflite will restore the 80” wide Imperial to be able to take up two of the , smaller than 60’s scale “full size “ typical parking spaces nowadays once again ! The trunk can hold such an enormous amount of her craft supplies , I strategically plan my route to avoid passing directly in front of Joanne’s or Hobby Lobby if ya know what I mean lol.

 

[MONC440]

Thank you life can change in an instant . I still have her and a 60 Imperial . Both needed a bit of work , she is doing okay , and hopefully with any luck just fixing the cast iron Tflite will restore the 80” wide Imperial to be able to take up two of the , smaller than 60’s scale “full size “ typical parking spaces nowadays once again ! The trunk can hold such an enormous amount of her craft supplies , I strategically plan my route to avoid passing directly in front of Joanne’s or Hobby Lobby if ya know what I mean lol.

If I can keep the family happy and healthy and have one project in the garage that's about all I can ask for. If you were closer I would rebuild that old trans for you. I did one one once that had brass friction discs in it, pretty cool. I hear you about the craft stores. lol

 

[413]

Sounds like you have done your homework on this. I like your game plan. The cast iron TF is a good unit, and if you can rebuild it yourself so much better for the wallet. The OH kit is still expensive though. Yes the shift cables are the same, I swapped one one time.

Joanne's is closing down for good in April so you won't have to avoid that on future trips!