70bigblockdodge- and anyone else, cam opinion please

65Fury440

65Fury440

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Building a stroker for my 65 Fury. I looked for your cam efficiency thread with no luck.
What are your thoughts on this cam, I want to keep RPMs 6500 and below for longevity.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hrs-720152-08/overview/
526 CI Source kit 10.1 CR
3800 lb car manual steering/brakes
4 spd
3.55 gear
MP 337 Intake
850 Mighty Demon for now
2 inch headers into 3 inch exhaust
Sidewinder Max wedge heads 350cfm @ .700
Crane ductile rockers 1.5
What kind torque/power would this cam make? Any educated guesses?
Would there be a better cam for this application anyone has had experience with?
Thanks as always for the help.
 
Landyacht said:
Unless you're building an all out drag car the cam you're looking at is way too much. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-cl21-225-4/overview/make/chryslerTry this one would work much better for the combo you are running.
Click to expand...
I have a 509 Purple shaft in the 440 now, that is very close to that cam, I will need more for sure.
I'd like something to make strong mid range in a stroker. I do not remember how 70bigblockdodge said to compute the efficiency of a cam. I am hoping to get around a 650 hp motor,but a torquey motor would be even better.

I am hoping for at least 10.99 quarter, just a personal goal I have set.Thanks for the response.
 
I would say bite the bullet and get a hydralic roller from Lunati. Never have to worry about zinc not being in oil and flattening a cam. Oil just is not what it used to be and anyone running heavy double springs should think of a roller or risk the whole engine when the metal from the cam flattening will get all over the inside of the engine bearings. Just my 2 cents. You spent enough on the engine don't skimp a couple hundred dollars on a cheap cam. here is a whole kit for $730.

https://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=4644&gid=365
 
From the Wallace Racing calculator:

"Your HP is 565.82 computed from your vehicle weight of 3800 pounds and ET of 10.99"


A few thoughts:

1) I'd stay away from any engine design that needs a .700+" lift camshaft to support the cylinder head flow on a street car. That's solid roller territory and probably not needed here. You can make 600-625hp on pump gas with a solid flat tappet and Edelbrock RPM's (or any other stock port window aftermarket head)

2) Crane's ductile iron rockers are not going to play well at the spring pressures required of a high lift (.650 and up) cam. At least not for long.

3) A friend of mine built a stroker using the following stuff and made 540hp and 580ish peak tq below 5500rpm on a DTS dyno.

440 block/4.150 stroker crank (1.094 pins)/6.76" H-beam rods/Mahle pistons/rings
.509 MP cam/Rhodes lifters/PRW steel rockers
1 7/8" Headers
6-pack induction w/ Pro-systems metering block upgrade

Food for thought here

If it was me I put a call into Hughes Engines and see if they can put you a package together with their rocker gear and a K-1 bottom end.

If you go roller cam I urge you to spend some coin on good roller rockers if you are going to street drive it much. Also keep in mind that big camshafts require higher spring pressures and that can create issues when it comes time to use your rockers, valve springs, retainers, etc. together. You want to be asking questions surrounding the overall design of the engine such as will your heads support enough installed valve spring height to support a camshaft with enough lift to support your head flow/hp/et goal and so on. It's a support group lol.
 
65Fury440 said:
I have a 509 Purple shaft in the 440 now, that is very close to that cam, I will need more for sure.
I'd like something to make strong mid range in a stroker. I do not remember how 70bigblockdodge said to compute the efficiency of a cam. I am hoping to get around a 650 hp motor,but a torquey motor would be even better.

I am hoping for at least 10.99 quarter, just a personal goal I have set.Thanks for the response.
Click to expand...
If you want to make 650 hp I would look into what your cylinder heads are capable of. Have you had any porting work done to the heads?If not I would call up some shops and tell them what type of motor your building what cylinder heads your using and if it is at all possible to make 600+hp with the heads you have. They might even be helpful in selecting the right cam that would work best with the type of porting work that they perform. You might be able to reach your goal with a much milder cam than the one you where originally looking at.
 
Wow I am flattered that someone is looking for me, thought I was just here to aggravate. The percentage is determined by dividing the advertised duration into the duration at .050. This gives a comparison of ramp speed ( how fast the valve is opening). 100% would be valve opens in zero degrees (instantly) and stays open at max lift for the whole duration. This is impossible to achieve, Mopar performance cams are all 85% and I know they get a rap of being ancient but they work and are a baseline. Flat tappets are okay you just have to run special oil because you have a special situation.

The Howards cam is 90.2%
The Comp cams is 84.5% and a lot lower lift
If your heads can move air all the way to .600 by all means open the valvle that far, high lift has no effect on drivability. Lots of cubic inches hides duration. That cam is pretty big for the rockers. You might want to upgrade rockers to the comp steel rollers ( I am not a fan of aluminum rockers for street use as aluminum work hardens over time and stress) or you can bring back the lift to .550 or so and pick up driveability (duration will roll back with reduced lift). I do not know if that will get you to your goal though.
 
"The percentage is determined by dividing the advertised duration into the duration at .050"
Cool,thanks, I am saving that for future reference.

I have talked to a couple big names about a custom grind. What I'm hearing them recommend is "about" 250-260 duration and 600ish lift. I want real numbers to play with. I have a set of Max Wedge port heads ordered from Todd Marsh that flow 350cfm at 700 and 338 at 600.I will have the intake ports matched to the heads.
For a .904 lifter, is the ramp too steep to be reliable for the street?
I may rethink the rockers, I ran a Max Wedge drag car in the 90s with a .650 lift with the iron rockers, My buddy ran a .590 cam for years and 1000s of miles on the street with them with no problems, but the scrub on the valve tips might be a weak spot.

I kinda thought this cam would be a moderate choice for the cubes vs duration. My thought was it would be a torque monster.
 
I don't see the numbers there. If the heads peak at 350, but only make 338 at your cam's peak, it's not enough cam. 650hp is nothing to sniff at. You will need some serious heads, and some serious valvetrain to make that on pump fuel and at an rpm that works with your gearing. I've made over 600, but that was with the std wedge port - not the MW. MW ports need rpm to really work. Sintered iron arms - no way will they will work with the required valve springs. I also don't see an 850 carb feeding it - even a wet-flowed 850. If it was me I'd be looking at a solid roller and Jesel valvetrain because that cam is going to have some big pressures, and not much else is going to live in that environment. I would be calling Bullet for a custom roller that will do what you want. You might want to post in the Moparts UNLAWFUL page to see what the guys that are making that kind of power (as in results on the track - not the dyno guys) are running.
 
65Fury440 said:
"

I have talked to a couple big names about a custom grind. What I'm hearing them recommend is "about" 250-260 duration and 600ish lift. I want real numbers to play with. I have a set of Max Wedge port heads ordered from Todd Marsh that flow 350cfm at 700 and 338 at 600.I will have the intake ports matched to the heads.
For a .904 lifter, is the ramp too steep to be reliable for the street?
I may rethink the rockers, I ran a Max Wedge drag car in the 90s with a .650 lift with the iron rockers, My buddy ran a .590 cam for years and 1000s of miles on the street with them with no problems, but the scrub on the valve tips might be a weak spot.

I kinda thought this cam would be a moderate choice for the cubes vs duration. My thought was it would be a torque monster.
Click to expand...

Moderate and torque monster yes. 650 hp while being moderate and torque monster - no. 526 simply isnt big enough for that.
 
moper said:
I don't see the numbers there. If the heads peak at 350, but only make 338 at your cam's peak, it's not enough cam. 650hp is nothing to sniff at. You will need some serious heads, and some serious valvetrain to make that on pump fuel and at an rpm that works with your gearing. I've made over 600, but that was with the std wedge port - not the MW. MW ports need rpm to really work. Sintered iron arms - no way will they will work with the required valve springs. I also don't see an 850 carb feeding it - even a wet-flowed 850. If it was me I'd be looking at a solid roller and Jesel valvetrain because that cam is going to have some big pressures, and not much else is going to live in that environment. I would be calling Bullet for a custom roller that will do what you want. You might want to post in the Moparts UNLAWFUL page to see what the guys that are making that kind of power (as in results on the track - not the dyno guys) are running.
Click to expand...
Trick Flow has a new head they claim makes 600 hp with a 241 duration roller cam with around 540 lift. It has 240 cc intake runners and 2.19 valves. They are a stock port design so no offset rockers or custom headers are needed. They come fully ported fully assembled for about $2000 a set.
 
Landyacht said:
Trick Flow has a new head they claim makes 600 hp with a 241 duration roller cam with around 540 lift. It has 240 cc intake runners and 2.19 valves. They are a stock port design so no offset rockers or custom headers are needed. They come fully ported fully assembled for about $2000 a set.
Click to expand...

I was considering the Tricks Flows, but as in any advertising, I think the numbers are generous in their favor.
Todd from Marsh can put together a Sidewinder head, ported by Larry Smith, for the same price, machined,assembled, ready to bolt on.
They also use stock valve train location and headers, and he flows them on his bench for you.
 
moper said:
I don't see the numbers there. If the heads peak at 350, but only make 338 at your cam's peak, it's not enough cam. 650hp is nothing to sniff at. You will need some serious heads, and some serious valvetrain to make that on pump fuel and at an rpm that works with your gearing. I've made over 600, but that was with the std wedge port - not the MW. MW ports need rpm to really work. Sintered iron arms - no way will they will work with the required valve springs. I also don't see an 850 carb feeding it - even a wet-flowed 850. If it was me I'd be looking at a solid roller and Jesel valvetrain because that cam is going to have some big pressures, and not much else is going to live in that environment. I would be calling Bullet for a custom roller that will do what you want. You might want to post in the Moparts UNLAWFUL page to see what the guys that are making that kind of power (as in results on the track - not the dyno guys) are running.
Click to expand...


The Max Wedge ports will bring the Torque/HP peak about 900 rpm higher (according to Andy F's book) , should be around 340cfm? with 620 lift. I spoke to Howards, they recommend 140 lbs on the seat, 340 lbs open. In the 526 CI range, the cam will have most power about 2700-6200 rpms. I think I'm going to go ahead with the ductile rockers, I have seen them abused with no failures.
I know the wet flowed Demon is too small, that can wait though.
Moper, curios what kinda cam/heads/compression you had in your build. As always, thanks for the responses.
 
65Fury440 said:
Building a stroker for my 65 Fury. I looked for your cam efficiency thread with no luck.
What are your thoughts on this cam, I want to keep RPMs 6500 and below for longevity.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hrs-720152-08/overview/
526 CI Source kit 10.1 CR
3800 lb car manual steering/brakes
4 spd
3.55 gear
MP 337 Intake
850 Mighty Demon for now
2 inch headers into 3 inch exhaust
Sidewinder Max wedge heads 350cfm @ .700
Crane ductile rockers 1.5
What kind torque/power would this cam make? Any educated guesses?
Would there be a better cam for this application anyone has had experience with?
Thanks as always for the help.
Click to expand...

Wow, after reading through the whole thread, I think you are on the right track. Being one of the "dyno guys" I think the engine will really rip and that you will achieve your power goals under 6,000 rpm. Do not be afraid of the Max Wedge ports, they will not hurt you at all, even on a 440.

We've run a 440 with Max Wedge Indy EZ heads that flow 370 CFM @ .700" lift, a single plane and a Comp Cams XE285HL hydraulic flat tappet cam 241/247, .545/.545 and could only manage 545 lb-ft and 595 HP @ 6,300 rpm with it.... POS......

I would just make sure I use the Howards 91718 solid lifters with the EDM hole in the lifter face.

I also think you may like the 850 Mighty Demon so much you may decide not to change it. We have used the 850 to make over 740 HP on a 500 wedge. You will make more horsepower with another, larger carburetor on the 526 though.

I think you will make at least 650 lb-ft and 620 HP before 6,000 rpm.

Your cylinder heads will have a lot of reserve flow from the higher lift capability but will still work well with your chosen cam.

We are running a 258/260 @ .050 solid roller cam in a 600 HP, 426 ci small block, Edelbrock Super Victor single plane, 91 octane, on the street with 3.23 gears and it drives around wonderfully.

Run your design, I think it is beautiful!
 
I have an MP509 in my 9:1 493. 500 hp @ 5000 rpm 600 ft/lbs @ 4000 rpm on 87 reg gas. Over 500 ft/lbs from 2000-5000 rpm. This was with 1.7 rockers which gives me .576 lift and a tick more duration. OOTB RPM heads with the valve job fixed and an M1 single plane with 900 cfm Holley TBI.

You've got 33 more cubes, more compression and more cylinder head. An easy 600+ HP and TQ with a turbo diesel TQ curve. Those Todd Marsh heads have a good reputation.

Kevin
 
Ok, first of all, thank you for the comments. I will be using EDM lifters, but I have one more question....

If MW port heads make their peak HP at 6500 rpm, and that cam makes peak power at 6200ish rpm, is that considered a good match?

" We've run a 440 with Max Wedge Indy EZ heads that flow 370 CFM @ .700" lift, a single plane and a Comp Cams XE285HL hydraulic flat tappet cam 241/247, .545/.545 and could only manage 545 lb-ft and 595 HP @ 6,300 rpm with it.... POS......"

Do you think large ports caused a low port velocity? What kind of numbers were you expecting? Did you try to put a bigger cam in and let 'er eat?
 
twostick said:
I have an MP509 in my 9:1 493. 500 hp @ 5000 rpm 600 ft/lbs @ 4000 rpm on 87 reg gas. Over 500 ft/lbs from 2000-5000 rpm. This was with 1.7 rockers which gives me .576 lift and a tick more duration. OOTB RPM heads with the valve job fixed and an M1 single plane with 900 cfm Holley TBI.

You've got 33 more cubes, more compression and more cylinder head. An easy 600+ HP and TQ with a turbo diesel TQ curve. Those Todd Marsh heads have a good reputation.

Kevin
Click to expand...

Sounds like a stout motor! The 509 in my 400 is a pretty good runner, but it doesn't sing until about 3k, your combo must be a blast to drive.
 
The ......POS....... was a joke. I was pleased with the power the engine made, as it made 500 lb-ft from 3500-6000 rpm. Yep, we put in a 278/280 @ .050 solid roller that Racer Brown made for my Dad back in 1968 and it made 658 HP @ 6,600 RPM.

The better heads will allow the horsepower to hang on as you wind the engine and there is a lot more to RPM of peak horsepower than port volume.

I believe that the cam and cfm of the port has a greater effect on rpm of peak horsepower than the volume of the port at the airflows that you have. I think that even a well done intake port, on a B-1 Original head, doesn't have too much volume to have a deleterious effect on port velocity and engine performance.

I really still believe your rpm of peak horsepower will be at 6,000 rpm or less (we've built too many 493-505 inch engines with street solid rollers [256-260 degrees @ .050"] that make 650tq/650hp at 5.800-6,000 rpm), and, that it will keep over 600 HP for a long ways after 6,000 rpm.
 
When you are quoting peak numbers make sure you are comparing apples to apples.

6500 peak in a 440 will be same power but less RPM in a 526. Mine peaked at 5K and then fell off a cliff. On a 440 a 509 should pull 6000ish easy.

Also the cam claim will change based on head flow and cubes. If they make the claim based on a 440 with a 250 cfm head, a 526 with a 330 cfm might wind out a little tighter which equal HP.

Cubes giveth and cylinder heads taketh away.

Kevin
 
65Fury440 said:
Sounds like a stout motor! The 509 in my 400 is a pretty good runner, but it doesn't sing until about 3k, your combo must be a blast to drive.
Click to expand...

When it first cranked up on the dyno I was a little disappointed because I thought 53 extra cubes would take some of the chop out of that 509 idle. It still cackled away at 1100 just like a 440 would.

As my builder pointed out to me, 76 deg of overlap is 76 deg of overlap.

I thought well it's going to be a stone to about 3500 but it should still make some steam. When the torque needle took a big jump at 1500 and was north of 500 ft/lbs at 2k, I was a bit relieved to say the least seeing as it was going in a 4800 lb C-body. No replacement for displacement.

I've only been to the track with it once and it went 13.92 @ 101 spinning to the 60' in 2.23 with a 2.76 gear. Exhaust is less than ideal now with shorty headers and full pipes to the back vs dyno headers but I think with a little gear, some hook and uncap the exhaust it should go 12.999. The dyno numbers would support a 12.90 at 4800 lbs so if it goes 13.0 I'll just keep bailing stuff out of the car till it goes 12.99.:3gears:

Kevin
 
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