A/C Is Charged, But Won't Blow Cold Air

fins2fuselage

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I just charged up my A/C system (non-AutoTemp). The compressor when the clutch is energized, but it doesn't blow old air from the vents. The heater control valve (NOS about 4 years ago) seems to be doing what it should. I'm guessing that it has something to do with the under-dash vacuum servos --- which can't readily be observed. Any suggestions?

Jeff
 
What are your A/C gauges reading when you are running the A/C? In my experience if the low pressure side is high, the expansion valve is sticking, if the high pressure side is high the EGR valve in the compressor is bad. Both issues will cause no cold air. What refrigerant are you using?
 
I just charged up my A/C system (non-AutoTemp). The compressor when the clutch is energized, but it doesn't blow old air from the vents. The heater control valve (NOS about 4 years ago) seems to be doing what it should. I'm guessing that it has something to do with the under-dash vacuum servos --- which can't readily be observed. Any suggestions?

Jeff

Need to know a few things:

Are you still running an RV2 compressor with R-12? If so, check the following:

1.) A lot of these systems were converted to R-134a, look at the head of the expansion valve, it will say either R-12 or R-134a be sure you have charged the system with the right refrigerant before proceeding further as very bad things can happen if the system is has the wrong charge in it.

2.) Feel the low side line of the evaporator where it comes out of the firewall, it should be cold and wet, if it is not, you are not circulating refrigerant. A defective dash control will not run the compressor so it is not likely the cause of your problem.

2.) Check the readings on your service manifold, is the low side running a lower pressure and the high side running a higher pressure? If they are both the same, the clutch is not turning the compressor. Take a socket wrench and try to turn the compressor at least a couple of revolutions. If it turns, the clutch is bad and will need to be replaced. If the compressor is locked up, it is toast and will need to be replaced, the clutch is probably also burned out and will need to be replaced if the compressor is locked up. If the expansion valve is stuck or defective, the system should short cycle due to inappropriate gas pressure. (Should go out on high head if the valve is stuck shut or frozen shut)

3.) If the system had lost its charge, did you evacuate it? If not, the charge might be contaminated with moisture or air. These systems with RV2 compressors tended to get open to the atmosphere if left uncharged. The front compressor seal dries out and bad things start to happen. Moisture contaminates the oil and the filter drier. The oil turns to jello and does not circulate. The filter drier becomes saturated with water and freezes when a new charge is applied. You will need to replace the front seal on the compressor (part number 1426501)and the filter drier. Be sure to put a light coating of R-12 or 134a oil as appropriate on the front seal and the filter drier o-rings, do not touch the machined surface of the compressor carbon seal Place a vacuum pump on the system for at least two hours. When doing this you should have suction hoses on both the high and low side of the compressor. Turn off the vacuum pump and see if the system will hold vacuum, if it doesn't, you still have a leak someplace that needs to be repaired before proceeding. Add 7 ounces of R-12 (or 134a oil if appropriate) refrigerant oil to the system. Re-evacuate the system for about 5 minutes. Try to start the system, it should not engage the compressor clutch. If the clutch engages, your limit switch is bad and needs to be replaced. After all of these things are done re-charge with the proper amount of R-12 or 134a. It should now function.

Dave
 
Thanks, all.

Now more problems have cropped up. The RV2 compressor clutch and its bearing have decided to take a dirt nap, and a hissing noise can now be heard emanating from the compressor after engine shut-down --- a freon leak I presume, though I can't determine from where.

The weirdest issue: the clutch still wants to engage (at least it tries to) even when the A/C is turned off! I have to unplug a lead from the low-pressure switch to get it to stop doing it. Yes, you can actually hear the electromag clicking on as the toasted clutch tries to engage; pull the lead and it clicks off.

Worst of all, I have apparently now wasted 3 cans of fre0n horded back in 1990.

My brain now hurts. I'm going to replace the clutch (so that the alternator has its required "idler pulley") and be done with it for now.

Jeff
 
been layin' r134a over r12 for about 17 years now. never a problem. also the heater hoses after the control valve should be cool. if they're hot, the valve's not shut. walmart has cheap 134a, $5.00 a can. have fun.
 
Thanks, all.

Now more problems have cropped up. The RV2 compressor clutch and its bearing have decided to take a dirt nap, and a hissing noise can now be heard emanating from the compressor after engine shut-down --- a freon leak I presume, though I can't determine from where.

The weirdest issue: the clutch still wants to engage (at least it tries to) even when the A/C is turned off! I have to unplug a lead from the low-pressure switch to get it to stop doing it. Yes, you can actually hear the electromag clicking on as the toasted clutch tries to engage; pull the lead and it clicks off.

Worst of all, I have apparently now wasted 3 cans of fre0n horded back in 1990.

My brain now hurts. I'm going to replace the clutch (so that the alternator has its required "idler pulley") and be done with it for now.

Jeff

Jeff

You have a bad AC relay that is stuck in the 'engage' position, that is why the clutch magnet still wants to run. The hot side of the relay has power to it with the key off. Most likely the contacts have fused and this is sending power full time to the clutch.

Would suggest that you unplug the blue wire from the clutch rather than the limit switch to disable it. Would also be a good idea to unplug the relay because if it shorted, it will drain your battery overnight.

Is you clutch making a lot of bearing noise that you think it is dead?

Dave

Dave
 
If you change the "clutch", be sure to dress the friction surface of the pulley section with a flat file so it's smooth. The two metal surfaces will "wear" and develop a wear pattern as they've engaged over the years, which can include high spots and low spots. Putting the fresh and smooth clutch against that irregular surface can result in "a sparkler show" when engagement might happen. It might be good to replace both sides of the clutch, but that can cost similar to a reman compressor, in many cases.

The auto supplies used to have a "drop-in" R-12 replacement that seemed to work well in older systems without changing them to R-134a. I believe it was a hybrid R-134a gas.

It is easy to recalibrate the system for R-134a. Easier than might be suspected, as far as the "gas" part goes, to get the desired 40 degree F vent temps. PM me and I can email you the file I saved from an a/c forum from about 2003. Nothing was mentioned about the expansion valve, just changing the evaporator pressure Hose issues can be variable.

On the FUSELAGE cars, especially, the a/c cases were prone to leaking, by observation. My '70 Monaco did it and our '72 Newport did it, too. It can do this and you'll not know it, too! Until you pull up the rh rubber floor mat and find moisture on the back of it and possibly some mold. So be sure to check for this issue! The local dealer resealed several with poor results, unfortunately.

CBODY67
 
If you change the "clutch", be sure to dress the friction surface of the pulley section with a flat file so it's smooth. The two metal surfaces will "wear" and develop a wear pattern as they've engaged over the years, which can include high spots and low spots. Putting the fresh and smooth clutch against that irregular surface can result in "a sparkler show" when engagement might happen. It might be good to replace both sides of the clutch, but that can cost similar to a reman compressor, in many cases.

The auto supplies used to have a "drop-in" R-12 replacement that seemed to work well in older systems without changing them to R-134a. I believe it was a hybrid R-134a gas.

It is easy to recalibrate the system for R-134a. Easier than might be suspected, as far as the "gas" part goes, to get the desired 40 degree F vent temps. PM me and I can email you the file I saved from an a/c forum from about 2003. Nothing was mentioned about the expansion valve, just changing the evaporator pressure Hose issues can be variable.

On the FUSELAGE cars, especially, the a/c cases were prone to leaking, by observation. My '70 Monaco did it and our '72 Newport did it, too. It can do this and you'll not know it, too! Until you pull up the rh rubber floor mat and find moisture on the back of it and possibly some mold. So be sure to check for this issue! The local dealer resealed several with poor results, unfortunately.

CBODY67
If you change the "clutch", be sure to dress the friction surface of the pulley section with a flat file so it's smooth. The two metal surfaces will "wear" and develop a wear pattern as they've engaged over the years, which can include high spots and low spots. Putting the fresh and smooth clutch against that irregular surface can result in "a sparkler show" when engagement might happen. It might be good to replace both sides of the clutch, but that can cost similar to a reman compressor, in many cases.

The auto supplies used to have a "drop-in" R-12 replacement that seemed to work well in older systems without changing them to R-134a. I believe it was a hybrid R-134a gas.

It is easy to recalibrate the system for R-134a. Easier than might be suspected, as far as the "gas" part goes, to get the desired 40 degree F vent temps. PM me and I can email you the file I saved from an a/c forum from about 2003. Nothing was mentioned about the expansion valve, just changing the evaporator pressure Hose issues can be variable.

On the FUSELAGE cars, especially, the a/c cases were prone to leaking, by observation. My '70 Monaco did it and our '72 Newport did it, too. It can do this and you'll not know it, too! Until you pull up the rh rubber floor mat and find moisture on the back of it and possibly some mold. So be sure to check for this issue! The local dealer resealed several with poor results, unfortunately.

CBODY67

I think the product you are referring to was marketed as RS-24. It has the advantage of being compatible without any replacement of the R-12 oil and can be mixed with R-12 already in the system. It also has similar performance to R-12, that is the upside.

RS-24 is a blend of gasses: HFC-125, HFC134a, a-butane, iso-butane and iso-pentane. As you might have guessed by now, this is a complex mixture of several components that need to be kept in the proper balance. For that reason, this refrigerant must be installed as a liquid. This was not too big of a problem with vane type compressors but could cause damage due to liquid slugging on piston type compressors. There is also the potential for the various components to separate when the system had lengthy downtime, especially in cold climates. Some systems could take several minutes to re-mix the various parts of the blend potentially causing oil circulation problems.

R-134a as a conversion gas from R-12 has its own issues. R-12 oil must be completely removed from any system that is converted to R-134a. R-134a is also a significantly smaller molecule than R-12 which means that often it will leak from rubber hoses and o-rings that were designed to contain the larger R-12 molecule. Leakage is a major issue on R-134a systems with piston type compressors since a relatively small drop in system charge can result in operating pressures that are too low to insure that the oil will circulate properly. A catastrophic failure of the compressor usually results because the crankcase runs dry. I was always disappointed that Mopar or some after market supplier did not address this issue by creating a low limit switch set at a high enough pressure to ensure proper oil flow with R-134a. If converting from R-12, it is also important to replace the R-12 expansion valve with one designed to run on R-134a to accommodate the smaller gas molecules. Yes, the system will still cool with a R-12 valve, but it will not be nearly as efficient.

Well, that is my two cents worth.

Dave
 
You guys are referring to this stuff. It's actually called 12a. Hard to find as it is illegal in some states.
Anybody want to buy four cans of this stuff? Don't need it anymore.

IMG_20170725_075638.jpg
 
Dave,

Thanks much. Where do I locate the A/C relay?

And yes indeed, I am getting plenty of bearing noise from the clutch. It slips and smokes as well; time for a complete new assembly.

Jeff
 
Dave,

Thanks much. Where do I locate the A/C relay?

And yes indeed, I am getting plenty of bearing noise from the clutch. It slips and smokes as well; time for a complete new assembly.

Jeff


The relay is under the dash, usually behind the instrument cluster.
 
From the time the initial testing was being done on R-134a, before it was used OEM, I had a friend (a former Chrysler parts counterperson) who went to work for Four Seasons. He said their initial testing was not good. The chemical company told them it would take 20% MORE gas in the system, so cooling was not good. It turns out that when they decreased the R-12 gas level to 20% below R-12 levels, cooling returned. So the first recommendations were to start with 20% less gas charge and then add gas until cooling leveled-off at the coolest level, then stop adding gas.

Other side issues surfaced, too, as things progressed. Air flow across the condenser is critical, especially in traffic or at low speeds. We saw this during the GM transition to R-134a in their full-size pickup trucks. Also, GM quietly increased the size and displacement of the R-4 compressor. We sold lots of the cycle switches, which were extremely inexpensive and small.
A related issue was condenser size, too. The condenser on a LH car is usually bigger than the radiator. "Mass flow" condensers were favored over the older "serpentine flow" condenser, too. In a few tests, my associate mentioned that they tried to increase condenser size by stacking them in series on the vehicle, if there was enough room.

In the ackits.com forum that mentioned the EPR adjustment, nothing was mentioned about expansion valves, even on the GM systems where the POA valves or VIR POA valves were adjusted. NO need for the conversion of those systems that ran the compressor constantly to change to cycled-compressor systems. So, as the expansion valve wasn't mentioned in those postings, I didn't worry about it. Be that as it may.

On R-12 systems, the poster mentioned that with the blower motor disconnected and the system operating, the pressure through the evaporator was right at 29.5" Hg. When that pressure was reduced to 26.5" Hg, 40 degree F vent temps happened, and the relationship between "high side" and "low side" came into the same relationship with R-134a as they typically had with R-12 in the system. On the POA valve, which IS adjustable, as with the Chrysler EPR valve, turning the adjustment screw about 1/2 turn CCW would lower the evaporator pressure to the desired level.

My Four Seasons associate noted the need to change the oil in the system, as the old R-12 oil would turn to jelly and settle to the lowest point in the system, usually the condenser, decreasing its capacity and resultantly, cooling performance. The answer was to hook a recycling machine to the system, flush it with pure liquid R-12, then evacuate it. Attach the R-134a machine, evacuate, add the necessary R-134a oil, plus the gas as necessary. When he mentioned this procedure, the old "flush fluid" was becoming very expensive and hard to get, and recycling machines were still in their infancy. As R-12 was still what was seen, that usually was the only recycling machine the shops had, adding the R-134a machines later. At this point in time, finding a shop with a functional R-12 recycling machine might be a trick.

When this deal started, there were THREE different a/c oils, depending upon the nationality of the vehicle and its a/c gas being used. I knew that later on, there would be a universal oil that would work with all gases, which is pretty much where things are now, even synthetic versions, too.

When building new hoses, the old "barb" fittings can't be used with the R-134a-compliant barrier hoses . . . the barbs puncture the barrier, rendering it "failed". The barrier hose is also "stiffer" so you might not be able to conform it to the same places as the prior R-12 hose. Test fit the length prior to finalizing the new hose construction.

The newer R-134a fittings have raised "humps" which seal against the inside of the hose and outside band clamp. That's what works with the barrier hose, so cosmetics are different. Over time, it was determined that if the old hose did not leak with R-12, the refrigerant oil would seal the inner areas of the hose exposed to the gas, so it would probably seal with R-134a. A possibly variable situation? Try it and see. Of course, anything that it's replaced with would need the new barbless fittings, appropriate o-ring seals, etc.

As far as pressure switches, by this time, there should be pressure switches to replace the earlier ones for R-12. Or switches that are adjustable externally, as the cycling switch for my '77 Camaro is. Getting into an a/c parts catalog, with illustrations in the back of the paper catalog, might be what's needed. It will take finding an auto supply that tends to specialize in a/c parts to find these catalogs, although the major suppliers might have them online, too. Check the thread size, the pressure range, and the pigtail plug-in connection to see what might work best for the particular application.

So, some things have changed since the first R-134a systems were prototyped by the OEMs. As I stated previously, send me an PM with your email and I'll sent the file I downloaded with the adjustment posts on R-134a use in R-12 vehicles.

CBODY67
 
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I just charged up my A/C system (non-AutoTemp). The compressor when the clutch is energized, but it doesn't blow old air from the vents. The heater control valve (NOS about 4 years ago) seems to be doing what it should. I'm guessing that it has something to do with the under-dash vacuum servos --- which can't readily be observed. Any suggestions?

Jeff
I had the same problem we found three problems There are two White Vacuum Valves under the dash ( easy to see) where not holding vacuum and the other was the Vacuum control unit on the back side of the push bottom control also would not hold vacuum this valve is best tested with a Smoke Machine.
 
Thanks, moelicious. The A/C project has bee place on hold temporarily as other issues have cropped-up, but I will get back to it eventually.
 
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