Here's what you do... There's an "ignore" feature that will stop you from seeing his posts.
I've found that it's the easiest way. You'll never have to read his postings unless you really want to.
Alternator wiring challenge
- Thread starter Gonzo
- Start date
I've found that it's the easiest way. You'll never have to read his postings unless you really want to.
Thanks John. But I may just want to ignore Stubbs and not ignore the whole thread. Is that possible? Plus, I think bullies need to be called out, especially on a forum such as this, where that type of behavior has no place. Oddly, the site administrator seem to think it's OK.
Yes, it's easy... Just click on their name and the menu pops up with "ignore" button right there.
Once that's done, you won't see anything posted.by him. At the bottom of the threads you may see "show ignored content" so you can see the posts should you want. For example, I had to do that to see what he wrote.
It's the elementary school bully that wants attention... Don't give it to him.
Honestly, I have no idea why @Joeychgo puts up with it.
how's that alternator wiring coming along 
stubs300
Senior Member
WTF are you talking about? I posted a technical link and this is the **** I have to take? **** you!
I've read some of your so called comments, you're not very helpful either, *****!
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Gonzo
Member
To thethee and anybody interested, I lost a couple of days since Rosie came back to me. Here's the latest:
Powermaster in service; all new wires and new original type points voltage regulator installed. There is also an addition to the original wiring: 8 gauge shunt wire from alternator direct to battery. Voltages with engine at idle and higher rpm's, with and without lights/accessories switched on, are just as they should be. However, now the ammeter needle is either centered (or slightly to the left at idle), even though voltage at battery shows correct charging. Could this be that the shunt wire is bypassing the ammeter circuit?
Powermaster in service; all new wires and new original type points voltage regulator installed. There is also an addition to the original wiring: 8 gauge shunt wire from alternator direct to battery. Voltages with engine at idle and higher rpm's, with and without lights/accessories switched on, are just as they should be. However, now the ammeter needle is either centered (or slightly to the left at idle), even though voltage at battery shows correct charging. Could this be that the shunt wire is bypassing the ammeter circuit?
Yes it does.
Gonzo
Member
So, it seems I have a good working charge system, but is there a downside risk as it stands now?
As long as all the connections and wiring is good, there should be no problems.
Gonzo
Member
Big_John you have helped me navigate my way through darkness to the light. Thank you. The invisible quality of electricity has often bamboozled me.
I think the wiring looks to be well done. No wire nuts or electrical tape making lamp wire connections.
Seems to me the shunt bypass is a good idea to relieve the possible problems of an electrical "log jam" at the ammeter.
Just like Willie sang: "On the road again.........."
I think the wiring looks to be well done. No wire nuts or electrical tape making lamp wire connections.
Seems to me the shunt bypass is a good idea to relieve the possible problems of an electrical "log jam" at the ammeter.
Just like Willie sang: "On the road again.........."
Look at it like running water through a hose. Voltage is like water pressure and current is the water flow. Kinks in the hose is resistance.
Gonzo
Member
So, the shunt wire is a bigger pipe to carry the flow directly where it needs to go, while avoiding the kinks and smaller pipes of the path through the ammeter, right?
Yes, pretty much, although the real restriction is at the bulkhead connection. It's sized a bit small and the connections tend to oxidize over time. Loose or oxidized equals resistance. Resistance equals heat. Too much heat and you have a fire.
Most of the problems with the ammeter come from loose connections on the back and isn't the devil that some will say it is. Somewhere along the line they changed to a shunt type ammeter that will carry a lot more current than the inductive loop style they used with the old generator cars. I've never been able to figure out when Chrysler made that change though... I can tell you that Ford and Chevy changed to the shunt style in 1966, and Chrysler started making reference to the shunt style in the ~1972 FSM, but I think they changed to the shunt style earlier than that.
Gonzo
Member
I don't want to open "Pandora's Box" but from what you say it sounds like it might be a good idea to have a look at the bulkhead connectors, as in pulling and cleaning? Are there visible warning signs of a pre-fire condition at the bulkhead connector?
Where do I best access/examine the "loose connections on the back"[of the ammeter]?
As you can tell I am weighing vigilant prudence, leading to another side-project learning experience, against the risk of "if it ain't broke don't fix it".
I have owned the car around 2 months, but hardly driven it because of my efforts to get it straight. I realize sometimes there are no good answers, as maybe in this case.
Where do I best access/examine the "loose connections on the back"[of the ammeter]?
As you can tell I am weighing vigilant prudence, leading to another side-project learning experience, against the risk of "if it ain't broke don't fix it".
I have owned the car around 2 months, but hardly driven it because of my efforts to get it straight. I realize sometimes there are no good answers, as maybe in this case.
You've taken away most of the issues with the bulkhead connector by adding the shunt wire to the battery from the alternator.
It's not a bad idea to check all the connections, but with the bulk of the current running through the shunt, it's now more about good connections for things like lights etc.
If you need to clean things up, I like the Deoxit liquid. Amazon product ASIN B0002BBVN2
Checking the back of the ammeter is just reaching up around the dash and feeling if the wires on the screw terminals are tight. Again, with most of your current going through the shunt, it's more about keeping things working.
Gonzo
Member
Roger that. More thanks for the clear suggestions. I'll continue to seek out corrosion problems wherever they may be and check those ammeter connections.
I have used the Deoxit with good results in a battle with corrosion in the fuel injection system of my formerly neglected old Moto Guzzi. Simple process with huge improvement.
I have used the Deoxit with good results in a battle with corrosion in the fuel injection system of my formerly neglected old Moto Guzzi. Simple process with huge improvement.
Philip Andrews
Well-Known Member
Though, do bear in mind one caveat with the bulkhead connector- inspect the female terminal that's mounted to the cabin side as well as you can.
If it's been carrying high current it may have become hot. If the terminal has a sort of dark red, oily look to it, the metal has been very hot. It'll lose it's spring and fall to make decent contact.
An easy way to check though, leave your headlights on for 30 minutes, then start the car up (assuming your battery in m is in good condition). Being the RPM up to about 1500 and hold it there. Then feel the alt output wire close to the bulkhead connector. It should not be warmer than any of the other wires.
If it is, replcing that terminal within the block may be a good idea.
If not, a good cleaning will go a long way. That red DeOxit @Big_John posted is good stuff. Dot a bit on each male spade terminal, then gently plug and unplug the terminal block. I would recommend also DeOxit D50 which can then be used to flush any crud out, protect the terminals and lubricate them slightly so its not a fight to connect it in the future.
Phil
If it's been carrying high current it may have become hot. If the terminal has a sort of dark red, oily look to it, the metal has been very hot. It'll lose it's spring and fall to make decent contact.
An easy way to check though, leave your headlights on for 30 minutes, then start the car up (assuming your battery in m is in good condition). Being the RPM up to about 1500 and hold it there. Then feel the alt output wire close to the bulkhead connector. It should not be warmer than any of the other wires.
If it is, replcing that terminal within the block may be a good idea.
If not, a good cleaning will go a long way. That red DeOxit @Big_John posted is good stuff. Dot a bit on each male spade terminal, then gently plug and unplug the terminal block. I would recommend also DeOxit D50 which can then be used to flush any crud out, protect the terminals and lubricate them slightly so its not a fight to connect it in the future.
Phil
Gonzo
Member
Thanks Phil. Ditto on Deoxit. I think I still have some, that is if I can find it.
I was looking close at the bulkhead connector today and I'm a bit relieved because it does appear to be clean and healthy, as does the car in general.
But it's still a good idea to give it the Deoxit treatment for a brighter future.
I was looking close at the bulkhead connector today and I'm a bit relieved because it does appear to be clean and healthy, as does the car in general.
But it's still a good idea to give it the Deoxit treatment for a brighter future.
SF_James
New Member
I thought I would chime in here as I a have been battling a problem on my 1964 300K.
Being well aware of the bulkhead issues, I pulled the connector on both sides and cleaned every connector and applied de-ox to them all.
I also removed the factory #12 black wire from the alternator to the bulkhead connector. I ran a #6 wire from the alternator to the battery post, though a 100 AMP MIDI fuse.
I then ran a shortened #12 factory wire from the bulkhead to a 30 AMP fuse fed from the main battery post. In addition, I made up two new #10 Cross-linked, not PVC, wires to run parallel around bulkhead connector to the AMP gauge.
I have a new Power Master 7019 unit. Everything seemed fine. I purchased one of those $10 USB charges that goes into the cigar lighter and has a volt meter in it (when not charging).
I noted my voltage was way up above 1500 RPM. Like 18 volts at freeway speed. The battery was starting to cook.
We ran down the voltages and the Ohms at every point in the system. Everything looks good but there was a slight drop in the voltage of "sensing wire" on the voltage regulator (VR).
That is the switched 12 volt on the VR. We went through two new standard mechanicnal regulators one from NAPA and one from another parts store but all from Standard Products.
Still the same problem. So we placed a relay in the circuit feed the VR from the battery and not the via the ignition system loop. (The old IGN wire is used to switch the relay.)
That helped as little but at freeway speed we were still seeing 15 volts.
I ordered a Transpro V1200 adjustable VR and wired it in. What every I set the unit at is what the voltage is so far. I have not taken it out on the freeway yet as I am awating a idle pulley as mine is whining loud.
Now I have run into this issue in the past. On my 1947 Desoto Suburban. I started to use Optima Batteries. After about three months my AMP gauge started to crepe up and up. I ate a couple of generator armatures. After months of technical discussion with Optima Engineers (before the sale) we determined that the mechanical regulators could not properly sense the battery state due to the lower resistance in their batteries versus regular batteries. I had sent batteries back and they cut them open to confirm that the plates were melting and caused internal shorts.
{A couple of years later there was an FAA advisory on this subject for folks with antique airplanes and the same issues}
I took off the generator and replaced it with a 6 volt positive ground internally regulated alternator and the problem went away. That car has been a daily driver for 20 years.
My point is that the old mechanical voltage regulators do not play nice with either the new battery technology and I suspect with the very high output Power master Alternators either.
{As a side not before people chime who use optima with regulators that are mechanical or with cars with generators...we determined that in cars that are not used much that the Optima will loose some voltage then get topped up then back into storage. This will mask the problem and one may never experience it. On a daily driver or on an airplane it will get topped up and then get into trouble}
In any event, my recommendation to anyone moving to a high output alternator is to use some digital type regulator. Based on our work the mechanical regulators may cause issues.
James
Being well aware of the bulkhead issues, I pulled the connector on both sides and cleaned every connector and applied de-ox to them all.
I also removed the factory #12 black wire from the alternator to the bulkhead connector. I ran a #6 wire from the alternator to the battery post, though a 100 AMP MIDI fuse.
I then ran a shortened #12 factory wire from the bulkhead to a 30 AMP fuse fed from the main battery post. In addition, I made up two new #10 Cross-linked, not PVC, wires to run parallel around bulkhead connector to the AMP gauge.
I have a new Power Master 7019 unit. Everything seemed fine. I purchased one of those $10 USB charges that goes into the cigar lighter and has a volt meter in it (when not charging).
I noted my voltage was way up above 1500 RPM. Like 18 volts at freeway speed. The battery was starting to cook.
We ran down the voltages and the Ohms at every point in the system. Everything looks good but there was a slight drop in the voltage of "sensing wire" on the voltage regulator (VR).
That is the switched 12 volt on the VR. We went through two new standard mechanicnal regulators one from NAPA and one from another parts store but all from Standard Products.
Still the same problem. So we placed a relay in the circuit feed the VR from the battery and not the via the ignition system loop. (The old IGN wire is used to switch the relay.)
That helped as little but at freeway speed we were still seeing 15 volts.
I ordered a Transpro V1200 adjustable VR and wired it in. What every I set the unit at is what the voltage is so far. I have not taken it out on the freeway yet as I am awating a idle pulley as mine is whining loud.
Now I have run into this issue in the past. On my 1947 Desoto Suburban. I started to use Optima Batteries. After about three months my AMP gauge started to crepe up and up. I ate a couple of generator armatures. After months of technical discussion with Optima Engineers (before the sale) we determined that the mechanical regulators could not properly sense the battery state due to the lower resistance in their batteries versus regular batteries. I had sent batteries back and they cut them open to confirm that the plates were melting and caused internal shorts.
{A couple of years later there was an FAA advisory on this subject for folks with antique airplanes and the same issues}
I took off the generator and replaced it with a 6 volt positive ground internally regulated alternator and the problem went away. That car has been a daily driver for 20 years.
My point is that the old mechanical voltage regulators do not play nice with either the new battery technology and I suspect with the very high output Power master Alternators either.
{As a side not before people chime who use optima with regulators that are mechanical or with cars with generators...we determined that in cars that are not used much that the Optima will loose some voltage then get topped up then back into storage. This will mask the problem and one may never experience it. On a daily driver or on an airplane it will get topped up and then get into trouble}
In any event, my recommendation to anyone moving to a high output alternator is to use some digital type regulator. Based on our work the mechanical regulators may cause issues.
James
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