Aluminum Radiators

Moseman

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I apologize, as I am sure this has been discussed previously. Just wondering what the opinion is for the best aftermarket aluminum radiator and electric fan set up. It will go back into a big block 26 inch core support to cool a 512 with a/c. I am looking for a total turnkey set up. Thanks in advance!
 
original shroud + hayden fan clutch + derale fixed fan and whatever radiator.

cold case dual fan setup was NOT enough to cool a mild 440.

electric fans are not worth doing. as a person who did it, and reverted back to OEM. im telling you this.

the cooling is marginal at idle. the electric draw is tremendous and will probably force you to upgrade your entire charging circuit.

as soon as I put back a fan clutch and OEM shroud I quit overheating.

try not to die -

- saylor

P.S. my homeboy owns the chic fil a in longmont. tell them ronjohn johnjohn ronzoni sent you.
 
@Moseman I have used Champion for aluminum radiators. Worked great on a 440 1968 Dart.
BTW, what did you do with the original connecting rods for the 440? For sale?
 
Very cool, lived in Plano and North Dallas for 27 years, then another 5 in Magnolia, TX. Interesting, that two fans could not cool the car in 105 degree Texas heat! I can go to original, easy, peasy. The 512 will replace this engine.
IMG_20201008_130505.jpg
IMG_20201007_163839.jpg
 
Personally and respectfully, the one thing that bothers me about anybody's full aluminum radiator is that when it might need a re-core, you have to replace it, as it's all heli-arced together. If OEM look is not important, then I might consider one of the newer composite ratiators, as OEM now uses. Upgrading to one from a new Charger/300 is pretty easy, but will need a place to put the radiator cap (as it's on the pressurized coolant reservoir on the new cars).

I suspect the 100amp alternator from something like a '76 Cordoba 400, with the factory rear windoiw defroster, would handle a modern elec fan setup. Plus generating the brackets needed to mount it. All OEM engineered and designed.

Just some thoughts,
CBODY67
 
This is what I used in my 1978 NYB with a 500 HP crate engine from CME. It works great!!!

20180818_101806.jpg
 
I had to use the Hemi aluminum performance water pump and housing because the radiator inlet and outlet is reverse sides of a Formal.
 
@Moseman I have used Champion for aluminum radiators. Worked great on a 440 1968 Dart.
BTW, what did you do with the original connecting rods for the 440? For sale?
This is a 400 build for one of my Cordoba's. The 400 in it is trashed as you can see by the pictures. Pulled a 400 out of a 78 New ?Yorker parts car.
 
I used the same brand radiator on my 440. But no fans. Of course its out of stock. Painted it black to blend in. Works well. not the greatest pic



IMG_0679.JPG
 
I've been VERY HAPPY with the Cold Case MOP753A, which I've run 3 summers in Tucson, AZ city traffic I installed in my '66 Newport, originally equipped with a very well made and RARE 18x22 inch radiator made for high altitude, with AC and automatic transmissions. I replaced this because it leaked in several places and the Cold Case radiator has proved to be a most cost effective replacement.

I use a Hayden 2747 clutch with a DeRale 18 inch 6 blade fan, supplemented by an A Team 3000 CFM 16 inch electric fitted in front as a pusher. I made an aluminum shroud for the DeRale fan, with good effect, but I'll keep the pusher for those summer days with 110F ambient i stop and go city traffic, when a mechanical fan and shroud will only move so much air driven by an engine at 500 rpm idle.

Thus far, this arrangement has NEVER exceeded 210F and with the pusher running BEFORE reaching 210, the engine coolant stays at 200F. My shroud does a good job when I get the motor turning at 800 rpm or more, and I now can usually turn the pusher off as soon as I get a little motion for more than a couple city blocks. The material cost of everything in the shroud came in under $25. Before installing it, the coolant could get up to 220F if I didn't turn the pusher on sooner. Only when parking in reverse would this happen, at home. My trailer park has some torturous driveways.....

Given the good price Cold Case gave me on their radiator, I've had a VERY cost effective cooling system from them. Despite losing 2 inches in height, the MOP753A actually holds about 48 fl oz MORE than the venerable Mopar 2524984 it replaced. Be sure, IFF I get the cash, and have NOTHING BETTER TO DO WITH IT, I'll then have it re-cored locally. I know an EXCELLENT shop owned by an old duffer who has worked on radiators for about 60 years now. I just pray he's still alive if I get the money to hire him. But since these compounded probabilities EACH approximate a blizzard in Hell's likelyhood, I say the safe money is to stick with well made aluminum radiators with big tubes for the foreseeable future.
 
There is also something about radiators, more rows aren't neccessary better. A 4 row wont cool as good as a 2 row with the same fan. The 4 row needs a stronger fan and tje heat from the first 2 rows will heat up the rest. A 4 row also has smaller channels. Thats less surface area. You know, 4x .25" vs 2 x1.5" for example.

I have a 2 row aluminium with a 16" spal fan. Has no problem cooling my 360.
 
I've been VERY HAPPY with the Cold Case MOP753A, which I've run 3 summers in Tucson, AZ city traffic I installed in my '66 Newport, originally equipped with a very well made and RARE 18x22 inch radiator made for high altitude, with AC and automatic transmissions. I replaced this because it leaked in several places and the Cold Case radiator has proved to be a most cost effective replacement.

I use a Hayden 2747 clutch with a DeRale 18 inch 6 blade fan, supplemented by an A Team 3000 CFM 16 inch electric fitted in front as a pusher. I made an aluminum shroud for the DeRale fan, with good effect, but I'll keep the pusher for those summer days with 110F ambient i stop and go city traffic, when a mechanical fan and shroud will only move so much air driven by an engine at 500 rpm idle.

Thus far, this arrangement has NEVER exceeded 210F and with the pusher running BEFORE reaching 210, the engine coolant stays at 200F. My shroud does a good job when I get the motor turning at 800 rpm or more, and I now can usually turn the pusher off as soon as I get a little motion for more than a couple city blocks. The material cost of everything in the shroud came in under $25. Before installing it, the coolant could get up to 220F if I didn't turn the pusher on sooner. Only when parking in reverse would this happen, at home. My trailer park has some torturous driveways.....

Given the good price Cold Case gave me on their radiator, I've had a VERY cost effective cooling system from them. Despite losing 2 inches in height, the MOP753A actually holds about 48 fl oz MORE than the venerable Mopar 2524984 it replaced. Be sure, IFF I get the cash, and have NOTHING BETTER TO DO WITH IT, I'll then have it re-cored locally. I know an EXCELLENT shop owned by an old duffer who has worked on radiators for about 60 years now. I just pray he's still alive if I get the money to hire him. But since these compounded probabilities EACH approximate a blizzard in Hell's likelyhood, I say the safe money is to stick with well made aluminum radiators with big tubes for the foreseeable future.
does your fan have aluminum or stainless-steel blades? Do you, by chance, have the Derale part number for it?
 
The issue of aluminum or stainless steel blades, in my case years ago, is that the stainless steel blades flex and flatten out at higher engine rpms. When the forward motion of the vehicle is supposed to push air through the radiator and a cooling fan is allegedly not needed. In which case the blades should be aluminum (non-flex) and run by a working fan clutch item. When the fan clutch kicks in and out is key, though.

The observed issue with a flex fan is that during high ambient temps, wind or no wind, as the engine rpm increases (which would draw more air through the radiator due to elevated engine rpm), the flex fan blades "flex" and flatten out significantly, which is visible. Initially, I was pleased that my then-new '77 Camaro 305 2bbl came with a flex fan. "No more fan clutches", I thought. But in the HOT summer of 1980, a few years later, with the factory 195 degree F thermostat and well less than 60K miles, the flex fan would only cool the engine down a certain degree, to 210 degrees F, in the shade inside a large open parking garage and with the car aimed into the 20mph wind. I was not terribly impressed as I felt a clutch fan fixed blade fan set0up would have done better AND I could hear it working.

Ford initially used factory flex fans in the later 1960s to alleged good success. In about 1975, I needed a new fan clutch on our '66 Newport 383 2bbl, but did not really want to spend the money for one . . . at that time. I used a shadetree "fix" by using a larger Phillips-head screwdriver to "imprint" the metal front of the fan clutch, where the silicone fluid is located, to increase the fluid pressure and make the clutch lock-up again. My advisor in this case had gone farther and used the "imprint" to actually stake the innards of the clutch together, making them solid, which I did not desire to do. With the higher fluid pressure, the fan on the Chrysler would unlock later, which I felt was good, but as a short-term fix.

In the mean time, I researched (as best I could in those "analog networking" days) and decided on a Flex-A-Lite stainless steel flex fan. A quality product from a known-quality company. Got all of the spacers to correctly position the fan in the factory fan shroud. It worked great and moved massive amounts of air . . . at a cost in added underhood noise. It was in the middle of TX July and 100 degree F temps. I was driving about 1.3 hours one way to work and back. Once the engine got past about 2000rpm on the freeway, the fan sounded like it was an airplane getting ready for a takeoff which just kept building. I even looked for a possible fuel economy increase from all of the perceived air the fan was pulling through the radiator, but that increase never happened. How well did it work? After that 1hr+ freeway trip, in 100 degree F temps, I could get home, raised the hood, not be bowled-over with underhood head, and grab the air cleaner and NOT have to quickly set it down as it was only about 80 degrees F or so warm. I was impressed with that fact, but the related sounds made it sound like a fixed blade fan on a hot rod with a 4.56 rear axle rather than the 2.76 it had.

Certainly, the Flex-A-Lite product was excellent in what it was doing and certainly looked more at-home than the green flberglass "right angle blade" fans many hot rodders were using back then. But the sounds were not good. I did more research on fan clutches and where to buy them at a good price and returned to that orientation. I removed all of the Flex-A-Lite items and returned them to the speed shop I got them from. All was quiet again and cooling was to Chrysler factory specs, again.

On the Camaro, I changed the orig flex fan with a OEM GM replacement item, suspecting the orig item's blades had gotten weak and were flattening out too soon. The new one did no better, so I started to research fan clutch set-ups for that OEM application. I ended up with a Police Impala set-up and it's still working great. So both of the factory flex fans are laying on a shelf in my shop.

As I had already gone to a 3-core Modine radiator on the Camaro, which came with a 2-core HD radiator with the factory a/c, the coolant temps would still rise past the 180 degree F thermostat's normal running temps. My theory was that at the 2000rpm cruise (55mph speed limit back then), the fan blades were flattened out as they should, but also could be blocking air flow through the radiator at the same time. Whereas the factory fan clutch would freewheel when air flow through the radiator would turn them rather than needing engine rpm to turn them. Hence, no possible restriction to air flow through the radiator at any vehicle speed.

On some of our Chevy customer's 3/4 ton pickups, in hot weather, while towing, they'd come in with the complaint that their vehicles were downshifting when running down the Interstate. What they were hearing was the fan clutch cutting in and out, not the transmission downshifting. When it was explained and they understood what was happening, after checking for any possible malfunctions, including a coolant level check, they were happy to know what was happening and why, continuing on their trip.

This is "the long answer" to the difference in aluminum or stainless steel fan blades and which is better. Adding an electric pusher fan to the factory-style set-up can be needed in certain locales, as Gerald has done. Staging the electric fan's operation IS important, to have it come in before it's needed rather than trying to cool a hot situation that is already too hot. One issue with electric fans is getting them wire-in correctly and their added electric load to a 60amp (approx) charging system. Although I recall no issues with "factory a/c" capacity alternators back then from those who installed them in their factory a/c vehicles. BTAIM

Just some of my experiences, back then,
CBODY67
 
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The issue of aluminum or stainless steel blades, in my case years ago, is that the stainless steel blades flex and flatten out at higher engine rpms. When the forward motion of the vehicle is supposed to push air through the radiator and a cooling fan is allegedly not needed. In which case the blades should be aluminum (non-flex) and run by a working fan clutch item. When the fan clutch kicks in and out is key, though.

The observed issue with a flex fan is that during high ambient temps, wind or no wind, as the engine rpm increases (which would draw more air through the radiator due to elevated engine rpm), the flex fan blades "flex" and flatten out significantly, which is visible. Initially, I was pleased that my then-new '77 Camaro 305 2bbl came with a flex fan. "No more fan clutches", I thought. But in the HOT summer of 1980, a few years later, with the factory 195 degree F thermostat and well less than 60K miles, the flex fan would only cool the engine down a certain degree, to 210 degrees F, in the shade inside a large open parking garage and with the car aimed into the 20mph wind. I was not terribly impressed as I felt a clutch fan fixed blade fan set0up would have done better AND I could hear it working.

Ford initially used factory flex fans in the later 1960s to alleged good success. In about 1975, I needed a new fan clutch on our '66 Newport 383 2bbl, but did not really want to spend the money for one . . . at that time. I used a shadetree "fix" by using a larger Phillips-head screwdriver to "imprint" the metal front of the fan clutch, where the silicone fluid is located, to increase the fluid pressure and make the clutch lock-up again. My advisor in this case had gone farther and used the "imprint" to actually stake the innards of the clutch together, making them solid, which I did not desire to do. With the higher fluid pressure, the fan on the Chrysler would unlock later, which I felt was good, but as a short-term fix.

In the mean time, I researched (as best I could in those "analog networking" days) and decided on a Flex-A-Lite stainless steel flex fan. A quality product from a known-quality company. Got all of the spacers to correctly position the fan in the factory fan shroud. It worked great and moved massive amounts of air . . . at a cost in added underhood noise. It was in the middle of TX July and 100 degree F temps. I was driving about 1.3 hours one way to work and back. Once the engine got past about 2000rpm on the freeway, the fan sounded like it was an airplane getting ready for a takeoff which just kept building. I even looked for a possible fuel economy increase from all of the perceived air the fan was pulling through the radiator, but that increase never happened. How well did it work? After that 1hr+ freeway trip, in 100 degree F temps, I could get home, raised the hood, not be bowled-over with underhood head, and grab the air cleaner and NOT have to quickly set it down as it was only about 80 degrees F or so warm. I was impressed with that fact, but the related sounds made it sound like a fixed blade fan on a hot rod with a 4.56 rear axle rather than the 2.76 it had.

Certainly, the Flex-A-Lite product was excellent in what it was doing and certainly looked more at-home than the green flberglass "right angle blade" fans many hot rodders were using back then. But the sounds were not good. I did more research on fan clutches and where to buy them at a good price and returned to that orientation. I removed all of the Flex-A-Lite items and returned them to the speed shop I got them from. All was quiet again and cooling was to Chrysler factory specs, again.

On the Camaro, I changed the orig flex fan with a OEM GM replacement item, suspecting the orig item's blades had gotten weak and were flattening out too soon. The new one did no better, so I started to research fan clutch set-ups for that OEM application. I ended up with a Police Impala set-up and it's still working great. So both of the factory flex fans are laying on a shelf in my shop.

As I had already gone to a 3-core Modine radiator on the Camaro, which came with a 2-core HD radiator with the factory a/c, the coolant temps would still rise past the 180 degree F thermostat's normal running temps. My theory was that at the 2000rpm cruise (55mph speed limit back then), the fan blades were flattened out as they should, but also could be blocking air flow through the radiator at the same time. Whereas the factory fan clutch would freewheel when air flow through the radiator would turn them rather than needing engine rpm to turn them. Hence, no possible restriction to air flow through the radiator at any vehicle speed.

On some of our Chevy customer's 3/4 ton pickups, in hot weather, while towing, they'd come in with the complaint that their vehicles were downshifting when running down the Interstate. What they were hearing was the fan clutch cutting in and out, not the transmission downshifting. When it was explained and they understood what was happening, after checking for any possible malfunctions, including a coolant level check, they were happy to know what was happening and why, continuing on their trip.

This is "the long answer" to the difference in aluminum or stainless steel fan blades and which is better. Adding an electric pusher fan to the factory-style set-up can be needed in certain locales, as Gerald has done. Staging the electric fan's operation IS important, to have it come in before it's needed rather than trying to cool a hot situation that is already too hot. One issue with electric fans is getting them wire-in correctly and their added electric load to a 60amp (approx) charging system. Although I recall no issues with "factory a/c" capacity alternators back then from those who installed them in their factory a/c vehicles. BTAIM

Just some of my experiences, back then,
CBODY67
This is very helpful CBODY67. I'm trying to do a good thing for my '66 Plymouth Fury with a 440 ci engine since I got the car without an engine, rad/cooling system items and am piecing it together. I guess my setup would be the same or very similar to your '66 Chrysler Newport. I would love to see detailed pictures of it to help serve as a guide for me.
 
I have no pictures and the car is now in my storage space. Otherwise, it looks like the pictures you can find in the factory service manual. Completely stock as Chrysler designed it. There might also be pictures in the illustrations of the Chrysler parts book for that model year, too.

At this point in time, getting an OEM-spec fan clutch can be difficult and pricey. Especially if you source one from the repro side of things. Years ago, the drilled-hole shaft mounting flange was replaced by the "universal fit" slotted flange. The center hole diameter matches that of many Chevy fan clutches, too. Key thing is the length of the shaft, between where the mounting flange touches the water pump pulley and where the fan bolts to the backside of the clutch. THAT dimenstion determines how far into the shroud the fan blade might extend.

Although there can be different part numbers stamped into the blade of the OEM factory fan blade, I suspect that fan blades from 1965 to 1968 will all interchange. Possibly even some Fuselage years of fan blades too? They will all be aluminum blades, with a cut-out section on their outer ends. Some painted all black as the ones for 1966 had the center hub area painted black and the blades "natural" satin aluminum. The diameter specs should be in a section of the FSM, too. Be sure to get it mounted/pointed the correct way, too, so it pulls air through the radiator rather than otherwise. Might have "FRONT" stamped into it, too.

You can probably find fan clutches at www.rockauto.com. The quality brand is now Hayden, which built aftermarket replacement fan cluitches back then, too. Looking in their website catalog can help, too. There might be a thread in here on fan clutches, as I recall. Use the "Search" window for that.

As I recall, 1966 was the last year for usage of the round top radiator, although the later square top (same core width) radiators will work, too. With the matching shroud mechanism.

Enjoy!
CBODY67
 
does your fan have aluminum or stainless-steel blades? Do you, by chance, have the Derale part number for it?

I looked in my designated receipt directory, but didn't see the deal there. It's an 18 inch, 6 blade, steel clutch fan. I now have a 7 blade MoPar clutch fan cooling the same motor, with an FFD electric pusher. I've not yet had the opportunity to build another shroud, and may not bother, as the FFD REALLY pushes well. Thus far this summer, the highest temperature that old 383 has risen to has been ~204 F. Not bad for June in Tucson!

Mind you, I had the old Mopar 3 row 22 inch radiator rodded out and patched last autumn after Mathilda's tragic demise, and will run this superb bit of cooling equipment until it begins leaking again. It's a 1965 Hi Altitude, w, AC + auto trans radiator, and Mopar didn't make such excellent, and expensive radiators in 22 x 18 inches much after 1965. U.S. Radiator makes something to order like it, for about a $grand. IFF I have that sort of money when I need a radiator again, I MIGHT go with them. The only aluminum radiator shop I trust any longer is Speedcooling in Chicago. Watson does good stuff, but sometimes you need to wait several months for him to make the radiator you want. That's why IU had that old Mopar rad rodded and patched when I did.

Depending on what you need, an FFD MIGHT be overkill. For the dollar, the A-Team Performance fans give a better bang for the buck, but in absolute terms, FFD RULES!

After I got mine in, I noticed that the remaining decisive variable in engine cooling for my setup is the PUMP. I did better with an old pre-AC Mopar pump, which actually moves the coolant faster, and for my setup, this works BETTER, than the stock w AC pumps do. One must find the ideal flow rate for the cooling system and engine one has. I'm leaning toward an electric pump, as I drive in city traffic over 95% of the time, OR, I might try a FlowKooler pump.

Finally, get a GOOD thermostat. I strongly recommend GENUINE Robert Shaw thermostats now, as they work as well as claimed. If you notice in the old Chrysler FSMs, the thermostats they depict LOOK A LOT LIKE THESE!

Chill out, whatever you do, and Happy Moparing.
 
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