Automatic Transmission Fluid Question

[63Fun]

Hello,

I'm sorry if this question has been asked before, but I wasn't able to find it when searching through the forum.

I have a 63 Chrysler 413 with a push-button 727 trans. When looking for what the correct fluid is, the manual only says Type "A" Suffix "A".

So that leads me to believe that ATF+2,3,4 didn't exist back then.

I bought a Chrysler ATF+4 that says it is compatible with MS-7176, ATF+, ATF+2, ATF+3, and ATF+4.

Which oil was my car originally intended for, and will ATF+4 work just as well?

Thank you in advance!

 

[jct]

i'm using mercon / dexron, that's what i found out to use

 

[440Sled]

I've been using your basic ATF +4.

 

[70bigblockdodge]

Type F it is the only one that has proper modifiers for bands.

 

[Mopars & Missiles]

i'm using mercon / dexron, that's what i found out to use

Agree

I've been using your basic ATF +4.

Agree

Type F it is the only one that has proper modifiers for bands.

Sorry, don't agree.


Here is what I was told to use by Rick Allison from A&A transmissions. With over 30 years of transmission experience, I would think he could be called an expert on the subject. But you decide for yourself.

Hi Tom,
I recommend a good brand of Dexron III/Mercon. You can also use the Mopar ATF Plus 4 fluid. As far as name brand if you are using Vavaline engine oil then I like their transmission fluid too. I really like and use Kendall’s “Classic” fluid but the problem with it in my eyes is it starts off as a more dark color. Almost like a ruby red so it makes it harder for the average customer to “read” the fluid to tell if it is darkening up. After a break-in period if you want to go to a part synthetic or even a full synthetic fluid I am ok with that but till we get it broke in a little let’s say around 750 to 1,000 miles. That way all the break-in dust from the bands and frictions are down in the pan and can be cleaned out and then with the new fluid and filter change you would be set to go for quite some time. Some customers like to use the synthetics and some have said that it helped lower their transmission temperature a little in the hot weather.
I think that should answer your question and if you have any others just let me know. It is one of the benefits to A & A. I try to have a strong Tech support system.
Talk to you later,
Rick

 

[65Newport]

I was told basically same from an old timer that says he grew up on 727 trans. Dextron Mercon is fine for normal driveing, if you hot rod often use the Mopar F.

 

[rexus31]

I've used Type F in my '65 727 since its rebuild. No issues, shifts great.

 

[70bigblockdodge]

ATF +4 is synthetic. O.P asked what to use I responded I did not hold a gun to his head and tell him what to use. Dexron/mercon is a semi synthetic and is backwards compatible so yes it will work. Type F is the only fluid that is a old leftover much like a hydraulic governed band type trans "old".

 

[Mopars & Missiles]

ATF +4 is synthetic. O.P asked what to use I responded I did not hold a gun to his head and tell him what to use. Dexron/mercon is a semi synthetic and is backwards compatible so yes it will work. Type F is the only fluid that is a old leftover much like a hydraulic governed band type trans "old".

I didn't say anything about "holding a gun to anyone". You are entitled to your opinion just as much as I am mine. At least I tried to provide a bit of backup information with a source with some credibility to it rather than just making a broad statement perpetuating something you have "heard" over the years and believe to be gospel.

If you have some actual expertise in the area of Fluid Dynamics and Power Transmission and can provide the factual data to back it up, then I'm more than willing to listen to your side of the story and hopefully learn something new in the process. Otherwise, don't make a statement like your some kind of all knowing expert. Explain what "proper modifiers" are in type F if you are so sure of your statement. Hell, 2 or 3 quarts of sugar water with a pinch of sand added will "modify the bands" too.

I don't have any agenda or ill will against you or anyone else, I just was giving the OP the info I was given by a reliable source. Sorry you took offense. There is way too much mis-information, blanket statements, and myths that are perpetuated by self proclaimed experts on all these boards. It often does more harm than good. Again, not targeting you, but if the shoe fits........

In closing, again, I'm not looking for an argument with you and really don't care what type of fluid you or the OP uses, but for me I'm going to listen to and use what the man says (Rick at A&A) that has successfully been professionally racing, professionally building, and professionally redesigning and modifying Chrysler 727 transmissions for more than 30 years. That is what has credibility to me, and also qualifies him as an "old timer", so it MUST be true.

I wish all of you the best and hope you have a great day, hopefully our next conversation will have less "drama and controversy". ccasion14:

 

[Mopars & Missiles]

I was told basically same from an old timer that says he grew up on 727 trans. Dextron Mercon is fine for normal driveing, if you hot rod often use the Mopar F.

I believe "Type F" is a FORD fluid, not Mopar. Please correct and inform me if I'm wrong on this. Thanks.ccasion14:

 

[65Newport]

I was referring to Mopar ATF +4, as stated in other post, and yes F in a Ford type, and so is Mercon and Dexron is GM.

 

[Mopars & Missiles]

I was referring to Mopar ATF +4, as stated in other post, and yes F in a Ford type, and so is Mercon and Dexron is GM.

Thanks for clearing that up, that makes more sense to me now.

 

[Big_John]

FWIW, back in the 70's I was told at a Mopar racing seminar to use Type-F over Dexron to make the trans shift a little harder. The reasoning was the "friction modifiers" were different in the Type-F. Dexron allowed a little more slippage and Type-F did not. He also said the clutch life in the transmission would be extended with Type-F.

The gentleman that said this was Bill Hancock, a Chrysler engineer. At that time he was heavily involved in the Mopar racing program and the "go to" guy for racing automatics. From there he went on to Arrow Racing.

While this is a bit dated and obviously doesn't cover newer type fluids, it is some food for thought.....

 

[63Fun]

Can someone please explain to me what the type and suffix variances actually mean?

 

[rexus31]

Can someone please explain to me what the type and suffix variances actually mean?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_transmission_fluid

 

[1978 NYB]

Type F it is the only one that has proper modifiers for bands.

Type F is the only fluid I have used for decades in a 727. Works great in big HP race cars with 727's.

 

[1978 NYB]

A lot of my ProMod friends run Super F in big 2500 - 3000 HP engines that are exceeding 900 cubes. Of course this article is biased because they are trying to sell the product....but you can understand the properties and performance of the fluid in this article.

http://www.dragzine.com/tech-storie...e-f-inside-atis-super-f-max-duty-trans-fluid/

And if you’re wondering about compatibility — ATI has successfully tested and recommends the Super F and Max Duty for use in virtually every common automatic racing transmission, including the GM Powerglide, TH350, TH400, Chrysler Torqueflite 727, 904, and Ford C4 and C6. At this time, only electronic transmissions are voided from the list.

 

[Mopars & Missiles]

FWIW, back in the 70's I was told at a Mopar racing seminar to use Type-F over Dexron to make the trans shift a little harder. The reasoning was the "friction modifiers" were different in the Type-F. Dexron allowed a little more slippage and Type-F did not. He also said the clutch life in the transmission would be extended with Type-F.

The gentleman that said this was Bill Hancock, a Chrysler engineer. At that time he was heavily involved in the Mopar racing program and the "go to" guy for racing automatics. From there he went on to Arrow Racing.

While this is a bit dated and obviously doesn't cover newer type fluids, it is some food for thought.....

Good info, :sSig_thanks:

 

[70bigblockdodge]

I went and read a bit about new auto trans fluids. Dexron is a GM formula that used sperm whale oil as did type A/suffix A. The endanged species act nixed this, it was reformulated using Jojoil which attacked the solder in GMs transcoolers modified a couple different times and ends up as Dexron III, which has now grown to DexronVI and is not completly backward compatible . ATF+3 was liked by Chrysler developed by Lubrizol corp. It has modifiers in it to prevent torque converter shudder during lockup and did a good job but it broke down by more than whatever %, so it was reformulated to ATF+4 to last 100,000 mi with anti shudder and non shear breakdown, real ATF+4 is a synthetic with very specific base stocks which is a reason for more$$$$ so those of you with newer Chrysler products use name brand ATF+4. Lockup T.C. use a clutch inside with friction material similar to clutches in trans so it stands to reason that it would be okay for older transmissions......I guess. I have used type F for a long time no problems, but seems like it is not a absolute choice, even DexronIII is okay for older trans.

 

[Mopars & Missiles]

I went and read a bit about new auto trans fluids. Dexron is a GM formula that used sperm whale oil as did type A/suffix A. The endanged species act nixed this, it was reformulated using Jojoil which attacked the solder in GMs transcoolers modified a couple different times and ends up as Dexron III, which has now grown to DexronVI and is not completly backward compatible . ATF+3 was liked by Chrysler developed by Lubrizol corp. It has modifiers in it to prevent torque converter shudder during lockup and did a good job but it broke down by more than whatever %, so it was reformulated to ATF+4 to last 100,000 mi with anti shudder and non shear breakdown, real ATF+4 is a synthetic with very specific base stocks which is a reason for more$$$$ so those of you with newer Chrysler products use name brand ATF+4. Lockup T.C. use a clutch inside with friction material similar to clutches in trans so it stands to reason that it would be okay for older transmissions......I guess. I have used type F for a long time no problems, but seems like it is not a absolute choice, even DexronIII is okay for older trans.

Yep, I've been doing the same and found most of the same info you just spoke of. A lot more has changed with fluids in the last 20-30 years than I imagined. Good info, thanks.