Black death on my diesel work van

Since the early 2000s, I wouldn't buy anything Mercedes (including Sprinter). After the first few years, they are just problems. And these days, I wouldn't buy anything diesel from anyone. The emission controls are out of this world complex. Nothing like the controls on gasoline engines that are comparatively simple. Diesels have particulate filters that often experience runaway regeneration that melts the filters and/or plugs them and the Nox Adsorber uses cow piss (urea or "diesel emission fluid" DEF) to make that thing work (and if you run out of DEF, then the engine goes into limp home mode with a very low top speed capability to ensure you get it replaced), and then there are ammonia catalysts as well on some models to clean up that smell, and on some models there is a catalyst up front of all this chemical factory on board to get the system up to temperature fast so it starts reducing emissions efficiently and pass the emission standards. The rest of the emission system is no better, and trying to make all this stuff happen correctly under all driving conditions continues to be a nightmare for the OEMs. Most diesels also have cooled exhaust gas recirculation that has to go through a cooler - well, those plug up after some 100K miles too, and throw an OBD code showing service is needed. The mpg you save won't be worth it when you look at repair costs down the road. RUN!
 
Yes I am buying a new van next year and it will not be a diesel. I always wanted all the diesel options europe has, but I am done with them now.
 
They (epa) is imposing a lot of regs on diesels taking the fuel mileage and maintenance which is taking any advantage out of owning a diesel.
 
They (epa) is imposing a lot of regs on diesels taking the fuel mileage and maintenance which is taking any advantage out of owning a diesel.

Similar problems existed with gasoline emission controls about 20-30 years ago, and then the controls got integrated and simplified, and the catalysts got much more sturdy and efficient as the engineers continued working on the systems and costs came way down, and now they are pretty much bulletproof and reliable and pretty simple. The goal was to use the after treatment system to clean up the emissions, and let the engines be tuned for maximum fuel economy and performance. That is where we are today - with cars such as Hellcats that get good mileage and perform like Teslas with the twin motor setup (I knew you would love that comparison) and very clean emissions. It only happened because of increasingly tight emission and fuel economy standards over the years as technology improved in concert. The same is happening with diesels now, but the development is still not as far along. I predict that in say another 5 to 10 years, diesels will again be worth considering, and they will be better vehicles for it in every way. They haven't had nearly the same amount of time to get refined as the gasoline engines. But the intent of the regulations by the CARB and EPA is to make the emissions of diesels and gasoline vehicles the same, and not favor either one. But in the meantime, we also have work going on with improved batteries and there actually seems to be more progress than I was expecting of late there, and then there are fuel cells in the future too. Who knows who will be the most successful in the more distant future? I believe the piston engine in light duty vehicles at least will not be around that much longer, except in our garages! With self-driving cars supposedly available very soon, things are changing faster than I ever thought possible just a couple years ago. :popcorn::eek:ld_school::steering:
 
I am a proponent of electric cars. I will buy one when the price becomes reasonable just for the fact that the overall amount of systems on the car is cut down.

No belts and hoses.
No cooling system.
No fuel system with a pump buried in the tank
No exhaust system to rot out or converter to melt down.
No transmission with multiple gears, with no clutch or T.C.
Added system Batteries, heavy cables, 2 electric motors.

If you told my dad and probably yours too when they were in their 20s lets say, that they would not have a plug in electric drill and that the battery one would be just as if not more powerful they would laugh in your face. We were laughing at electric cars 15-20 years ago now there are ones out there that will ride along with a Hellcat.

Another added bonus is not having to stop and deal with all the shitheads at the convenience store/gas station with their cars sitting on the pumps while they are ordering sandwiches. Charge it at home overnight and drive by numerous assholes every day now that is blissful thoughts.
 
I can't believe no one is siding against electrics. I do think that diesel engine manufacturer's will over come the problem plagued emission systems with different designs. One thing they will probably do for large trucks is adopt a drive line like a locomotive diesel over electric, eliminating all the throttle movements to accelerate just a movement once to bring engine up to speed letting the electric crawl it out of the hole, reducing the high soot making rpm increases and fall.
 
Electric cars (and motorcycles) are going to drive the demand and cost of fossil fuels down to staggering low's in the next 10 to 20 years. And believe me, the competition to build electric cars is growing fast. The Germans already have a concept car to compete with Tesla....

150915114005-porsche-electric-car-mission-e-780x439.jpg


http://money.cnn.com/2015/09/15/autos/porsche-debuts-first-electric-car-mission-e/index.html
 
I have tested electric motorcycles for a decade already for the U.S. Special Forces at the Proving Ground. They love the electric bikes.....they are silent and extremely fast. Instant and I mean instant torque as soon as you hit the throttle. This is exactly what they need and prefer when they are in deep covert mode. Sorry, no pictures. Cant say much more either .....you can goggle electric motorcycles to find out more.
 
So if you run out while on the road, can you piss into it?

In all seriousness, this prompted me to do my compulsory Googling on this whole DEF crap. What a Rube Goldberg solution. WTF!?!?!?
Lean out the fuel/air mixture (Lean burn? ) to the point where the exhaust emits excessive NOx that then must be treated with piss and water that then shoots AMMONIA! out the pipes?

So some day CARB will ban ammonia emissions and they will have to add on some shitass cleanup system for that.

Why not just take the NOx and juice the engine in the first place?

Steve?
 
I am waiting for them to start making the Mr Fusion that and my flying car.

DeLorean_DMC-12_Time_Machine_-_Mr._Fusion.jpg

DeLorean_DMC-12_Time_Machine_-_Mr._Fusion.jpg
 
So if you run out while on the road, can you piss into it?

In all seriousness, this prompted me to do my compulsory Googling on this whole DEF crap. What a Rube Goldberg solution. WTF!?!?!?
Lean out the fuel/air mixture (Lean burn? ) to the point where the exhaust emits excessive NOx that then must be treated with piss and water that then shoots AMMONIA! out the pipes?

So some day CARB will ban ammonia emissions and they will have to add on some shitass cleanup system for that.

Why not just take the NOx and juice the engine in the first place?

Steve?

Well, its not quite that bad Stan! Gasoline engines are made to operate at what is called stoichiometric air fuel ratios which means only that there is just enough air to combine with the fuel to burn the mixture completely and this is regulated using oxygen sensors. Under these conditions, catalysts can continuously reduce nitrogen oxide emissions into the elements nitrogen and oxygen, which are harmless to the environment (nitrogen oxides combine with hydrocarbons in sunlight to create smog, which in places like Los Angeles have been a real problem in the past). Today's gasoline engine catalysts can continuously convert nitrogen oxides into the harmless nitrogen and oxygen with no need of an additive, but they must operate continuously at stoichiometric air fuel ratios or operating a little rich is OK too, but can never operate lean.

With diesels, they almost always run lean except at near wide open throttle (which also helps fuel economy). As most probably know, diesel engine speed/power is regulated by fuel flow, not by a throttle as in gasoline engines (it is the lack of a throttle that partly helps give diesel engines better efficiency than gasoline engines since there are no pumping losses due to a throttle, which makes a gasoline engine work like a vacuum pump to create a vacuum with the attendant energy losses to make that happen). Diesels also operate at very high compression ratios to also achieve greater efficiency compared to gasoline engines, but this also creates high nitrogen oxide emissions. So under lean conditions, nitrogen oxide catalysts will not work well. So diesels are very much harder to control for nitrogen oxide emissions. The best solution so far is for them to use a nitrogen oxide adsorber (not absorber) which means nitrogen oxide emissions are accumulated on the surface of the adsorber until the surface is full and then at regular intervals DEF is squirted into the exhaust stream ahead of the adsorber, and chemically reduces the accumulated nitrogen oxide emissions into ammonia and water. Early NOx adsorbers also had a catalyst after the adsorber to minimize ammonia emissions that are not a pollutant relative to smog, but of course can smell bad and irritate if the concentration is too high. But diesel engineers have learned how regulate carefully the amount of DEF dosing in conjunction with some temporary adjustments to diesel fuel injection at the same time to minimize ammonia emissions such that a clean up catalyst is often not needed anymore. CARB did consider setting limits on ammonia formation but decided to forego it in view of the improvements in the aftertreatment systems. And the required on-board diagnostic systems can detect when the upstream actions needed to minimize ammonia formation are not working correctly and set a fault code. The nitrogen oxide reduction part of the diesel aftertreatment systems is not so much the problem with diesels, it is properly operating the particulate filter such that is remains efficient over hundreds of thousands of miles without burning up or clogging due to run away regeneration or clogging up due to insufficient regeneration (regeneration mean setting off a fire inside the particulate filter to clean up the accumulated carbon so it can collect the particulate again). Doing this satisfactorily over many miles under so many different driving conditions and temperatures is where the real problems still exist in getting it right without destroying the filter or bringing the vehicle to a stop (or at least a big loss in power due to plugging).

The goal though, is to allow the engine to operate at its peak for power and fuel economy like the old diesels, but let the aftertreatment system clean up the exhaust almost completely, and not have to detune the engine like they have had to do in the past. In other words, operate just like the gasoline engines do now to maximize fuel economy/power and emit pretty close to zero emissions. Gasoline engines are so clean now that after about the first 20 seconds of startup, the tailpipe emissions are cleaner than the background air in such places as Los Angeles any more. Nice. The diesel guys just need more time to get it right and durable. Electric or fuel cell vehicles will not likely displace diesels for heavy duty trucks for a long time to come, so we need diesels still and they need to be clean. With light duty vehicles, the gasoline engine is on its way out.
Steve
 
This is why I think they will go to a diesel electric system on big trucks, to keep the engine running at a more constant rpm.
Another drawback of D.P.Filter is it makes the truck quiet and that is also unacceptable to some of us.:poke:
 
After reading this thread, I feel better about my 2015 Ford Transit 350 purchase. I'll admit I was disappointed when we bought it. I wanted a diesel, bad. It has the 3.5l ecoboost twin turbo gas engine. We only get about 19 mpg with it but I think that is because the wife lead foots it. On paper, a diesel is the way to go until you get the government involved. They screw up everything.
 
This is why I think they will go to a diesel electric system on big trucks, to keep the engine running at a more constant rpm.
Another drawback of D.P.Filter is it makes the truck quiet and that is also unacceptable to some of us.:poke:
Electric cutouts.
Just sayin...
 
On paper, a diesel is the way to go until you get the government involved. They screw up everything.

Well, as a California resident for about 66 of my years, in Los Angeles no less, I am truly grateful that the Air Resources Board took on the smog problem. In the 60s and 70s, it was getting so bad that everyone was thinking of leaving. You couldn't see the mountains just a couple blocks away and you couldn't even mow the lawn without having breathing difficulties and lung pain from the ozone because the smog was so bad. And the haze like you see in China today reflects life here 40 years ago, and it made life dreary. But today, it is really clean and beautiful again. Thank you CARB.
And I don't think there are many people that dislike their new gasoline vehicles these days, since they are durable, reliable and perform very well, and get good fuel economy. And because of government rules that started with CARB, and then were adopted by the federal EPA, even more improvements in fuel economy are on the way. And the auto industry now says they will meet them, despite strong complaints before the rulemaking was finalized. The fuel savings will much more than offset the increased costs of these vehicles too, and the rules will spur greater development of EVs and other advanced power trains. Many parts of government are good. It is Congress and the paid off legislators who need to go.

Now I get to really enjoy my backyard. And it looks like this most days of the year now.

Steve

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100_7413.jpg
 
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