Building collapse in south Florida

patrick66

patrick66

Old Man with a Hat
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About a quarter of the structure simply collapsed into a pile of dust and debris. One known dead, several missing as of 8:00 CDT.

The collapse looks amazingly, and eerily, similar to what the Murrah building did in April 1995. Not insinuating a bomb did this in Florida, it's that the collapse itself looks so much like OKC.

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I haven't heard anything about this yet so I don't know where it is, but being in FL I can't help but think sink hole.
 
I spoke to a consultant buddy of mine this morning who just moved back from FL. He said a lot of the owners of older high rises have recently been replacing the balconies on their buildings due to compromised rebar. From weathering I've seen on buildings on the gulf, I would think it's plausible. Lawyers are going to have a field day with this one as soon as the engineering report is published.
 
That is pretty wild for a spontaneous collapse. I hate it for those hurt or killed. If this wasn't intentional there had to be some warning signs like major cracking or rapid cracking weeks or months before this.
 
BigblueC said:
If this wasn't intentional there had to be some warning signs like major cracking or rapid cracking weeks or months before this.
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From what I've read, this building had cracking issues back in the early 90's, details at 11!
 
MetalManiacAZ said:
I spoke to a consultant buddy of mine this morning who just moved back from FL. He said a lot of the owners of older high rises have recently been replacing the balconies on their buildings due to compromised rebar. From weathering I've seen on buildings on the gulf, I would think it's plausible. Lawyers are going to have a field day with this one as soon as the engineering report is published.
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I recently moved from Florida (Panama City Beach to be exact), worked as facility maintenance for a resort for years. Saw firsthand how the salty humidity can permeate porous concrete and rust through steel rebar, causing cracks, spaulding & structural damage. I worked in one resort built back in the '60s that actually had a basement, seen support columns that had cracked and signs of potential buckling. And this was only a 3 story. So imagine the weight of 12 stories!

Back then, they didn't have coated rebar to prevent or slow down rusting, that's only been around since the late '90s I think. And because of the close proximity of the ocean, all that salty humidity (averaging 90% every day) can have a dramatic effect.

Tv news interviewed a previous owner/board member, he stated seeing cracks on the pool deck years ago, hinting of problems. In the 90's, a university did a study and showed that the ground had shifted from the weight of ALL the high rises in the area and that buildings had sunk several inches. Now add in the nearby construction of a neighboring building - to lay the foundations they drive these huge steel pillars into the ground to help stabilize the structure, a process that literally pounds them into the ground. I know from personal experience that causes seismic shaking to be felt as much as a block away. If an older structure manufactured WITHOUT treated rebar that had already shown cracks and issues, that could further weaken it to result in the tragedy seen this week.
 
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The worse thing that happens to the nice beach areas is the hi rise building. Personally I would like to see all beach side condos and buildings torn down and the beach's developed into public parks...... Wishful thinking.... :rolleyes:
 
WSJ reported today that the building had been experiencing water ponding issues around garage level column bases. This situation was reported but later not mentioned in a subsequent condition report.

although not directly relevant, coastal reinforced concrete buildings with balconies all tend to have issues at parapets and balconies due to cracking and spalling of the surrounding concrete due to infiltration of salt laden moisture to the steel (which then rusts and expands).

If the water problem reported in the basement correlates with the source of collapse, this was the ultimate cause of the collapse.

Liability will eventually settle on those that knew and acted or failed to act, the code which was met and the method currently in use to head off these types of failure from happening.

results will be:

1) change in building code regarding (a) concrete cover over reinforcing steel exposed to subterranean conditions (b) use of greater steel reinforcement in the above locations. (C) possible change to coated steel in the above locations. (D) increase drainage requirements for underground or covered parking with greater redundancy and reporting requirements.

2) there will be classification and reporting requirements for recertification of existing buildings. Increasing requirements of inspectors professional training/experience and inspection protocols.

3) immediate decertification of buildings which have similar reported conditions.

My personal speculation is that the water ponding problem was not addressed properly or competently to look for hidden damage and deterioration below the lowest level parking slabs.
 
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Of course….. the Huffington Post is blaming it on ground subsidence caused by…. You guessed it…. Global Climate Change.

Because, as we all know, it is the real existential threat to our civilization.

To which I say: Horse feathers!
 
73 T&C said:
Of course….. the Huffington Post is blaming it on ground subsidence caused by…. You guessed it…. Global Climate Change.

Because, as we all know, it is the real existential threat to our civilization.

To which I say: Horse feathers!
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Makes sense you would think horses have feathers...... :poke:
 
I saw this as I was keeping up and watching late night news and manhunt on our cop shooting here in Daytona Beach hours before this happened.

Nothing new.... concrete spalling, very widespread problem in any coastal community, it's been going on here for decades. I could tell you stories all day long.
I saw a FB or Twitter image right off the bat on this and thought I'd saved the image, (but it's lost somewhere on my 'pooter) to post up in the Epic Whoops thread with a condo prices/sales will be falling comment.

It's already happening, several class action law firms have already filed, Surfside Realtor commented they are getting flooded with "Is my building safe" calls from recent high end buyers. Shoddy patchwork all day long around here. We just had a reopening of one of the oldest and tallest towers here from hurricane damage (2x) from what 5 years ago now. People were questioning why it was taking so long and I had to explain how it works, water get's into the building via roof damage or old non Miami Dade code windows (post Andrew), code inspectors come in and see's the water damage and revoke's the 'Human Occupancy License' due to wetness that will turn into Mold within days, everyone out whether it be a Condo or Hotel or whether you even had water damage in your unit (think lower floors). Then the whole building has to be gutted and a mold remediation done because by then the mold is everywhere, A/C off or A/C has spread it through the building. Then if it's a fairly old building it has to be brought up to current codes before the 'Human Occupancy License' can be reissued. As in the Top Of Daytona building the whole building was without a fire sprinkler system and that had to be installed for multi millions of dollars, they also even had to install Police/Fire radio repeaters in the building as the supposed whizbang cure all 800Mhz radio system (20 years old now) has many deadspots in these condo towers. Years ago I helped a friend (sub) lump sheet rock up into a condo tower that was going through hurricane damage to bring the windows/sliders brought up to Miami Dade code, just the window in the bedroom cost 5 grand, and he told me that I don't even want to know what the sliders cost. And this was a similar size 100 unit building..... Balcony repair/replacement? Been going on for decades and with the added HOA fees bankrupting many. Ain't owning a beachfront condo fun?

One of the massive riverfront condos that was built to replace the Old Historic termite ridden Ormond Hotel that suffered hurricane damage (mostly mold) turned into a massive FEMA multi-million dollar fraud case. I have no idea what the outcome of that one was other than the case is still ongoing(?).

Fun Fun Fun on the Sun/Fun Coast.

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What's sad is that only one of you have mentioned the over 150 people missing or unaccounted for, plus the five known dead. Every one of those buildings is basically ready to go, at anytime. All built of similar construction, in roughly the same time frame. Hundreds are going to be homeless rather shortly, as the surrounding buildings are closed down and evacuated. Where do people go? Another local hi-rise?

I'm the furthest thing from a "bleeding heart" you'll ever meet; but when things like this happen, you'll find as you dig deeper - fraud, mismanagement, selective building code enforcement, and a lot more shady **** than folks are willing to think about.
 
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