Building collapse in south Florida

[68PK21 440.6bbl]

I saw an article that someone doing an evaluation of the building in 2018 raised serious concerns.

Yea I've seen the pictures in the 2018 report evaluation, the place was a shithole.... Really I've seen plenty around here in the Daytona Beach area like that. I just sort of pause and look around like "You see that?", "Does anyone notice that?"... It's like seeing the bridges on the highways up north decades ago with wire mesh to stop the falling spalling concrete. Our parking garage by the Ocean Center, why is water leaking through the ceiling, there are 2 floors above this level and I know it rained recently (like yesterday) by why, why, why...

The only good with our hurricanes from 2004 and on, with the bring it up to code regulations is that it took out many of our low & medium rise hotels. It was just too expensive to sprinkler the building alone, and no insurance will pay for that, it is a million dollar plus out of pocket expense. So down it goes, plenty of very large beachfront empty lots still from the 2004 hurricanes, so much so that Cities & the County are buying them up for off beach parking and to reduce the blighted look.
Andy Romano Park in Ormond Beach is one.

But just on our local talk show today the host said when he was living in a rented beachfront condo down in the trendy Hi-Rise (Concrete Canyon) shores area he saw concrete spalling repair going on in his building and he said that building was just 10 years old.

The long delayed Russian Condo/Hotel Tower (largest ever in the area here) is getting back on track to finish the north tower after 2 GC's bailed on the project. First one said the Developer weren't paying them in a timely manner, Developer denied that, subs were locked out and had to go to court to remove material (electrical) that they said was not paid for... Don't know why the second GC left, The developer & city snuck in a backdoor FDOT traffic plan that riled up the neighbors and landed in court and got turned around IIRC. The south tower was left open for so long after the first GC walked that when they let the newspaper reporters in they saw a uninstalled escalator that was already rusting.

Mind boggling....

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[68PK21 440.6bbl]

I haven't heard anything about this yet so I don't know where it is, but being in FL I can't help but think sink hole.

No the beachfront area is actually above bedrock. (so they say)

 

[SPF Required]

Rain water can have a devastating affect on limestone. And buildings can have a way of focusing the direction of that rainwater…. Poorly maintained buildings can be even worse.

years ago, there was a corvette museum in Bowling green the experienced a devastating sink hole (especially if you’re a corvette fan). I know someone very close to the ensuing site investigation, and the shape of the buildings dome concentrated the rain water around the edge of the building which then led to the undermining of the limestone under the building that eventually swallowed the cars.

Watch sinkhole swallow 8 Corvettes at museum

I will venture to guess they will find a sink hole at the bottom of the pile of debris in surf side. And likely claim it’s climate change. But I can’t help but think this was human caused at some level. It’s a tragedy anyway you look at it. So sad.

 

[68PK21 440.6bbl]

Here's the picture I snagged on the morning of the 24th, one of the first on FB.

And of course all the frigging conspiracies are starting up, some say this was the cause:

And I won't go into the ones I heard on the call in talk radio today... why is this guy even allowed to be on the air? (local host)

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[68PK21 440.6bbl]

ALL the high rises in the area and that buildings had sunk several inches.

No some University (Florida?) has been taking subsidence measurements since the early 90's and they take the measurements in millimetres, this building had gone down and was in a yellow zone (minus 2 millimetres per year). Further south down Collins Ave (A1A) into Miami beach where all the 'New' High Rises are it's all in the green zone, that's where I got the bedrock comment, some streets are in the red zone (understandably) most of all the red zones are to the western part of the island (marshland).

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[68PK21 440.6bbl]

What's sad is that only one of you have mentioned the over 150 people missing or unaccounted for, plus the five known dead.

Ya know you sort of get desensitized to these tragedy's, what are we going to do, go on social media and mass flood prayer emoji's to try and make someone feel better or reduce they're grief? I actual saw a funny old time mime about this. (now where is it)

It's a big world now, almost 8 billion people, floods, bridges collapsing, some mega tower in China is leaning, people fleeing and crossing borders pretty much everywhere, welcome to population overload. And speaking of China, remember the Tsunami Earthquake that wiped out Banda'Bingoville in Jakarta & Thailand?
Welp about a week or 2 after that a 7.9 quake hit a city in China with a population of 12 million, and this was a fairly modern hi-rise city, but they knew it was on a major fault line, like built on the side of a mountain . The Australian news showed a woman sitting at the base of a pancaked hi-rise burning incense morning her children that were entombed in the building. News said feared 900,000 dead, World Earthquake rescue people offered assistance but said were kind of busy right now. China responded no thanks we can handle it, last I heard was they weren't even going to try to go through the rubble and rescue and retrieve bodies as it was a insurmountable task and they knew it. Their solution, evacuate the whole city and build a new one away from the fault zone. Oh and also they said the woman could have another child as this was during the 1 child rule. The most I could find on the World News on this months later said 9,000 were dead. In the past several months with all this Volcano activity I learned that there has been many more 7+ earthquakes deep in the interior of China, and the Volcano outside Goma? 1 to 2 million people fleeing that. And what was the latest on Myanmar? Feel lucky to be where we are.

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[patrick66]

It's the "We have to do SOMETHING!" types I worry about. They are the knee-jerk type, that accept nearly any plan, no matter how good OR bad, just to be able to say something is being done. When the solution is worse than the incident, then it all hits the fan fast.

China sees people as dispensable. With 1.3B people, they have spares.

I'll dodge softball-sized hail, tornadoes, and wildfires any day of the week.

 

[73 T&C]

From WSJ this morning.

one more found bringing confirmed dead to 12. 150 people still “missing”. Efforts are still in rescue mode for now but hope is fading. Fire and then rain have hampered all efforts and reduced the survivability of this tragedy.
Very sad.

As to the possible causes, the WSK goes on to say:

“Of more than a dozen experts interviewed for this article, including nine structural engineers, most agreed that the collapse appeared to involve a failure at the lowest levels of the building or in the parking garage beneath it. In images of the rubble, four experts saw indications of “punching shear failure,” in which concrete slabs that make up the floors of a building detach from the structure’s vertical support columns.”

a sad event made sadder by the possibility it could have been prevented.

 

[polara71]

Designed wrong or built not to spec

 

[patrick66]

People rightfully have an expectation that a building like that should last at least 50 years, if not more. It's expensive and very dangerous to have a building demolished intentionally, or have a building fail its design specifications and collapse catastrophically. I really don't know what the solution might entail, but when pictures emerge from pre-collapse of what is obviously a potentially dangerous and deadly situation (the pump/maintenance area under that building, specifically), I would think a sense of urgency would exist to try to isolate the problem areas and figure out if the potential for a calamity is imminent, high, medium, low, or not an immediate issue to property and life.

As always, it's really all about the money. How much to relocate people (if necessary), then rectify, remediate, renovate, restore, or reduce the building to rubble.

I see the images of the Murrah Building in OKC from 1995; an intentional act of terrorism. And then look at the collapsed condominium in Surfside, which appears to be a truly tragic accident. The similarities are scary, in terms of the actual death count in OKC (likely death count in FL) and the images of both buildings afterwards.

 

[MrMoparCHP]

Designed wrong or built not to spec

I'd say neither, it was most like built to spec with the knowledge they had at the time, events like this are what lead to changes in the code.


Alan

 

[polara71]

I guess we'll see. From the reports as noted above this thing has had history of serious noted problems. Why is this one coming undone but others aren't?

 

[MrMoparCHP]

I guess we'll see. From the reports as noted above this thing has had history of serious noted problems. Why is this one coming undone but others aren't?

Different level of maintenance and inspections, even with concrete structures there are ways to inspect them.

Everything weathers in time.


Alan

 

[rapidtrans]

This building sat on a island that has seen a lot of heavy flooding over the years. You just know the building has been undermined from water run-off, deep ground soak. Then you have all that salt air and water affecting exposed rebar from cracking yikes.
Makes the girlfriend rethink our 10th floor condo now!

 

[patrick66]

When you look at buildings like the Lincoln Cathedral in England, which started construction in the year 1070 and finished out over a course of about 250 years, and the fact it has remained intact since...this architectural masterpiece has withstood everything. It's a grand building, I've visited it several times, and to say it is massive is an understatement. What's my point? Modern building techniques and codes should result in the ability to build something that lasts decades without serious problems in the structure, itself. Forty years! Now, granted, Lincolnshire doesn't have an annual hurricane season to worry about, and the structure sits imposingly on a hill. These buildings in Florida have withstood forty years of high winds and water, along with the occasional hurricane. But, forty years?

 

[stubs300]

This is more like it!

 

[Toolmanmike]

Salt eats steel and concrete. You should see our roads here in the upper midwest. Our bridges here in Iowa are the worst in the nation. The previous owner of our house used water softener salt on the patio. The concrete surface isn't too bad but it is eating the foundation of our garage. It's brick so pretty difficult to just jack it up and pour new footings and floor.

 

[rapidtrans]

Different level of maintenance and inspections, even with concrete structures there are ways to inspect them.

Everything weathers in time.


Alan

Anyone ever deal with a condo association full off octagenarians? OMG!

 

[polara71]

Different level of maintenance and inspections, even with concrete structures there are ways to inspect them.

Everything weathers in time.


Alan

This building sat on a island that has seen a lot of heavy flooding over the years. You just know the building has been undermined from water run-off, deep ground soak. Then you have all that salt air and water affecting exposed rebar from cracking yikes.
Makes the girlfriend rethink our 10th floor condo now!

Salt eats steel and concrete. You should see our roads here in the upper midwest. Our bridges here in Iowa are the worst in the nation. The previous owner of our house used water softener salt on the patio. The concrete surface isn't too bad but it is eating the foundation of our garage. It's brick so pretty difficult to just jack it up and pour new footings and floor.

All of which get factored in while in design and engineering. If this thing was sinking or footings were getting undermined then that should have been taken into account .

If they were all falling down, ok, I get it . This one?

 

[polara71]

Salt eats steel and concrete. You should see our roads here in the upper midwest. Our bridges here in Iowa are the worst in the nation. The previous owner of our house used water softener salt on the patio. The concrete surface isn't too bad but it is eating the foundation of our garage. It's brick so pretty difficult to just jack it up and pour new footings and floor.

BUT you have gas tax which covers all that, all is well.