Been looking at a car for sale and wondering why it has such damaged pitted chromework around the windshield and door frame, when rest of car seems fine. I thought perhaps been sitting without a windshield/screen undercover for some time, then replacement fitted ? Can these be removed and rechromed easily ? Many thx for advice / replies
Cause of rust on internal chromework round windshield and door frames ?
- Thread starter coco
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57fury440
Well-Known Member
Some people leave their windows down a lot. Moisture will get on it and rust will eventually appear. Those pieces should unscrew and come off easily. They might clean up with some good metal polish and 0000 steel wool.
57fury440
Well-Known Member
Maybe those pieces were redone or cleaned up when the interior was redone. If the headliner is original, they might not have touched anything there.
GregG48203
Active Member
Perhaps it's a result of condensation on the windows.
I had forgotten what its like to have exposed metal inside a car, when kept outside. Perhaps that is what its been, never been garaged and the interior has been redone at some point, but not all of it. Dealer yet to respond to my inquiry to buy. Thanks to you all for replies appreciated...
Car sits outside with windows rolled up.
Water/moisture gets inside car.
Car warms up and the water condenses up and gets on all the upper chrome and chrome screws and rusty it.
Yes the dash is just fine most of the time.
Happens in Seattle area like crazy on cars that sit out and not driven regularly.
Must crack the windows or open up the car on dry days and get that moisture out.
Big problem is never brushing the snow off. It condenses large water droplets on the glass and metal inside the car.
Water/moisture gets inside car.
Car warms up and the water condenses up and gets on all the upper chrome and chrome screws and rusty it.
Yes the dash is just fine most of the time.
Happens in Seattle area like crazy on cars that sit out and not driven regularly.
Must crack the windows or open up the car on dry days and get that moisture out.
Big problem is never brushing the snow off. It condenses large water droplets on the glass and metal inside the car.
One somewhat misconception is that all chrome plating is created equal. In some respects it is, in other respect, it's not.
The "bumper chrome" is harder and shinier, for example, that then interior brightwork, which has a more satin finish, by comparison. There are also different "shades" of chrome, too. I observed that factory bumpers and such on Toyota pickups (1990s) had a more blue tint to it, as USA models were more "white" or "silver". Little nuances like that can give vehicles a different look, by observation.
The less-hard the chrome might be, the more porous it can be, as a result. Which then means it does not protect as much against moisture intrusion into the lower layers and the base metal underneath. Which can result in the "rust" forming.
There are several DIY ways to remove rust deposits, including DIY solutions to apply to the surface, let it sit a while to chemically dissolve the rust, then wash off and neutralize before it is further polished/waxed for protection.
Consider, too, that if enough moisture collected on those particular items, it might also be on the underside of the roof areas, which did not receive any more than basic primer at the assy plant. So investigate further when you remove the parts for cleaning. Might need to apply some rust encapsulator products?
Enjoy!
CBODY67
The "bumper chrome" is harder and shinier, for example, that then interior brightwork, which has a more satin finish, by comparison. There are also different "shades" of chrome, too. I observed that factory bumpers and such on Toyota pickups (1990s) had a more blue tint to it, as USA models were more "white" or "silver". Little nuances like that can give vehicles a different look, by observation.
The less-hard the chrome might be, the more porous it can be, as a result. Which then means it does not protect as much against moisture intrusion into the lower layers and the base metal underneath. Which can result in the "rust" forming.
There are several DIY ways to remove rust deposits, including DIY solutions to apply to the surface, let it sit a while to chemically dissolve the rust, then wash off and neutralize before it is further polished/waxed for protection.
Consider, too, that if enough moisture collected on those particular items, it might also be on the underside of the roof areas, which did not receive any more than basic primer at the assy plant. So investigate further when you remove the parts for cleaning. Might need to apply some rust encapsulator products?
Enjoy!
CBODY67
fury fan
Senior Member
Removing all those pieces is not as simple as it seems.
Around windshield and back glass, yes, it will be just screws.
Along the side glass, though, it's more involved.
You must remove the weatherstripping. As you are workign on a 65-66 NY coupe, new weatherstripping might not be available if yours is damaged during removal.
65-66 'regular' 2dr hardtop might fit, or might not, depending on how they formed it at the top rear corners. If not a sharp corner, maybe it will work.
Then, after that is out, there are hidden screws that let the interior chrome pieces come out.
The 65-66 Plymouth-Dodge 2drs are like this, I presume the NY will be the same.
Around windshield and back glass, yes, it will be just screws.
Along the side glass, though, it's more involved.
You must remove the weatherstripping. As you are workign on a 65-66 NY coupe, new weatherstripping might not be available if yours is damaged during removal.
65-66 'regular' 2dr hardtop might fit, or might not, depending on how they formed it at the top rear corners. If not a sharp corner, maybe it will work.
Then, after that is out, there are hidden screws that let the interior chrome pieces come out.
The 65-66 Plymouth-Dodge 2drs are like this, I presume the NY will be the same.
D Cluley
Well-Known Member
I suspect that the 2 door New Yorkers use the same weatherstripping as the 4 door hardtops.
Saying that the plating inside the car is different is quite true.
Regular chrome plating for a bumper is a layer of copper, followed by nickel, followed by chrome. For these interior pieces, I believe they are electroless nickel plated. I've never been able to confirm that... But I've also not looked into it real deep. If you look at it, it doesn't have the color or "depth" that a good bumper will have.
For electroless nickel, the parts are submerged in a bath with no electrical current passing through it. It looks good, but not really meant to survive 60 years.
darth_linux
Well-Known Member
I had this exact same problem on my 66 Newport, but in my case, the windshield and backlight trim was PAINTED and rusty/crusty, not chrome plated. A lot of the chrome knobs and dials on the dash were also rusted like yours. I had a rear window that leaked water into the trunk every time it rained/snowed. This caused what amounted to an Amazonian rain forest in the car when it was parked outdoors for the winter. A car cover didn't help. Cracking the windows didn't help. "Dry-Z-Aire" didn't help. Parking on top of a tarp didn't help. Basically I wiped down/dried the interior everyday over the winter to try and save the car from self-destruction.
I did fix the rear window leak back in June, and I'm buying a proper metal car port to park the car under this winter so it's not exposed to any more rain or snow. I'd love to build a proper garage for it, but we've been dealing with cancer and unemployment for the past 16 months and a home improvement loan for such a luxury is not in the cards just yet. Things are going the right direction health wise, so we just need to "weather the storm" (pun intended) to get to a better place where I can provide better shelter for the SS Anderson. Hopefully by next spring I can further invest in her preservation.
Check for leaks at the back window by getting in the trunk with a light, closing the trunk lid, and have an assistant pour water along the lower lip. If you have holes in the sheet metal, you'll find them quickly. Make sure they let you out (lol)! I found SEVERAL holes (1/16" or so) along the lower edge of the back window. I cleaned the entire channel very thoroughly and used a clear silicone windshield adhesive to fill them in. There are other methods to repair this, but this is the route I went. It's worked so far. Since I don't drive the car in rain, and I plan to park it under cover during the winter, I'm satisfied with this method for now. I don't have any water intrusion when I wash the car.
For the rusty chrome on the dash, it cleaned right up with chrome polish and 0000 steel wool. I've yet to repaint the trim around the tops of the windows yet because I can't figure out what color it actually is. But that's a whole other story . . .
I did fix the rear window leak back in June, and I'm buying a proper metal car port to park the car under this winter so it's not exposed to any more rain or snow. I'd love to build a proper garage for it, but we've been dealing with cancer and unemployment for the past 16 months and a home improvement loan for such a luxury is not in the cards just yet. Things are going the right direction health wise, so we just need to "weather the storm" (pun intended) to get to a better place where I can provide better shelter for the SS Anderson. Hopefully by next spring I can further invest in her preservation.
Check for leaks at the back window by getting in the trunk with a light, closing the trunk lid, and have an assistant pour water along the lower lip. If you have holes in the sheet metal, you'll find them quickly. Make sure they let you out (lol)! I found SEVERAL holes (1/16" or so) along the lower edge of the back window. I cleaned the entire channel very thoroughly and used a clear silicone windshield adhesive to fill them in. There are other methods to repair this, but this is the route I went. It's worked so far. Since I don't drive the car in rain, and I plan to park it under cover during the winter, I'm satisfied with this method for now. I don't have any water intrusion when I wash the car.
For the rusty chrome on the dash, it cleaned right up with chrome polish and 0000 steel wool. I've yet to repaint the trim around the tops of the windows yet because I can't figure out what color it actually is. But that's a whole other story . . .
Sorry to hear of the health issues and glad things are looking better!
The "plug the holes" fix is good and can last a good while. I did similar on a '68 Buick I have that was leaking into the rh frt floorboard, from a cowl rust hole. Incognito and done.
The paint inside the car is more of a suede-texture for anti-glare issues. Just as chrome inner A-pillar moldings are more of a satin chrome finish.
One year at Mopar Nats, there were two Imperials sitting beside each other. Friends parking beside each other, in the same area. Both of the cars had the chrome interior moldings, base of the A-pillar, up and over, to the base of the C-pillar. They were in amazing shape, so I asked if they were re-chromed. The wife of the owner replied that they bought the car from the original owner, who was a chain smoker. As a result, she said, the interior of the car was covered in nicotine. She said her husband spent an entire winter polishing the nicotine off of the chrome moldings to get them cleaned up. I was amazed! Then thought, if it does that to preserve chrome, what does it do to one's lungs?
Take care,
CBODY67
The "plug the holes" fix is good and can last a good while. I did similar on a '68 Buick I have that was leaking into the rh frt floorboard, from a cowl rust hole. Incognito and done.
The paint inside the car is more of a suede-texture for anti-glare issues. Just as chrome inner A-pillar moldings are more of a satin chrome finish.
One year at Mopar Nats, there were two Imperials sitting beside each other. Friends parking beside each other, in the same area. Both of the cars had the chrome interior moldings, base of the A-pillar, up and over, to the base of the C-pillar. They were in amazing shape, so I asked if they were re-chromed. The wife of the owner replied that they bought the car from the original owner, who was a chain smoker. As a result, she said, the interior of the car was covered in nicotine. She said her husband spent an entire winter polishing the nicotine off of the chrome moldings to get them cleaned up. I was amazed! Then thought, if it does that to preserve chrome, what does it do to one's lungs?
Take care,
CBODY67
fury fan
Senior Member
I don't think they are Electroless Nickel coated.
I have had only 1 experience with EN, which was as a coating on fan blades to provide erosion protection for bulldozers that were used in a sandy operation in the Middle East. The sand whirling around the high-tip-speed would eat the fan blades up within the warranty period.
EN is meant more as an engineering solution, not a pretty appearance thing.
It provides surface toughness and corrosion resistance.
I'm not positive of all of its uses, but all the applications I saw were dull gray, and I didn't think it could be polished. I just googled it, and most results say no to polishing.
EN is an impressive process/coating from an engineering perspective.
It can attain a Rockwell hardness of 50-60C, which is comparable to chrome plating.
3 major benefits over chrome:
It can provide an even surface thickness within several .001". Chrome-electroplate thickness will vary by much more than that whenever the electrical current field changes around corners and sharp features. You can EN coat a bolt and the threads will come out perfectly - with chrome, the bolt might no longer fit into the mating component.
EN is applied chemically, and therefore has near-perfect/complete adhesion. Electroplate is vulnerable to peeling.
EN is much more environmentally-friendly. The EPA monitors it, but isn't actively working to stamp out this process like they are with electroplating.
So -
My belief is that the interior chrome is Electroplated, but with fewer layers of nickel.
I saw some comments from smoker folks during covid that the nicotine in their lungs prevented the virus from attaching/surviving.
While they obviously said it in jest, it was as believable as anything 'ole Fowch was spewing.
Good question. I don't claim to know much about it. I know EN is mostly used for wear applications, but I also think that it is used for cosmetics too. The amount of phosphorous is what determines how hard the surface is when done.
I looked around a bit on the intrawebs and found this pic of an EN plated part next to a chromed part.
As I said, I don't know if this was used or not. I have read things about interior pieces being "flash chromed". That gets explained a couple ways. One is it's copper followed by nickel with no chromium. The other is it's just nickel. The term "flash chromed" gets used for surface hardening too, so there's much confusion over the terms.
The fact is that the chrome on interior parts just isn't the same as something like a bumper. IMHO, the lack of blue says that there's no chromium final plate.
I could be completely wrong on everything though. Plating is like heat treating... A dark science.
fury fan
Senior Member
Oh yeah, I forgot about the phosphorous level determining the hardness. It was ~10 years ago I was involved in that project.
That picture of nickel vs chrome, here's an article I found (my bolding):
Nickel plating was used on a lot of vintage instruments. It has a slightly yellowish tint and warm look when compared to chrome with its blueish tint and cooler look. Nickel plating is corrosion resistant but tarnishes easily. Nickel isn’t as hard as chrome and will age nicely with normal use. Usually the metal is copper plated before the nickel is applied. The copper is easier to polish then the bare metal and will give the nickel a smoother finish.
Chrome(chromium) is used on many guitars today for its ability to stay looking new longer. The benefits of chrome are that it is very durable, corrosion resistant, and won’t tarnish. Something that is seen often is the term “triple chrome plating” or “show chrome”. Both of these terms mean that the item is first plated with copper, then nickel, and last chrome. Copper is used for its ease of leveling and polishing. Nickel is used because it is needed for good chrome adhesion. If the copper plating is omitted then more polishing is required of the bare metal to give the smooth liquid appearance commonly seen on chrome products.
Based on that, and the mention of copper, I don't think those photo pieces are EN, I think they are electroplated.
I could imagine interior trim skipped the chromium step. I also wonder if maybe the interior trim got chromium but was given a shorter time in the tank, or at lower current, and therefore not as much chroming metals were deposited? That would save cost for interior parts of a car - reduced process time and material.
No, I don't think you are completely wrong on any of this. And you're right, it's an art!
That picture of nickel vs chrome, here's an article I found (my bolding):
Nickel plating was used on a lot of vintage instruments. It has a slightly yellowish tint and warm look when compared to chrome with its blueish tint and cooler look. Nickel plating is corrosion resistant but tarnishes easily. Nickel isn’t as hard as chrome and will age nicely with normal use. Usually the metal is copper plated before the nickel is applied. The copper is easier to polish then the bare metal and will give the nickel a smoother finish.
Chrome(chromium) is used on many guitars today for its ability to stay looking new longer. The benefits of chrome are that it is very durable, corrosion resistant, and won’t tarnish. Something that is seen often is the term “triple chrome plating” or “show chrome”. Both of these terms mean that the item is first plated with copper, then nickel, and last chrome. Copper is used for its ease of leveling and polishing. Nickel is used because it is needed for good chrome adhesion. If the copper plating is omitted then more polishing is required of the bare metal to give the smooth liquid appearance commonly seen on chrome products.
Based on that, and the mention of copper, I don't think those photo pieces are EN, I think they are electroplated.
I could imagine interior trim skipped the chromium step. I also wonder if maybe the interior trim got chromium but was given a shorter time in the tank, or at lower current, and therefore not as much chroming metals were deposited? That would save cost for interior parts of a car - reduced process time and material.
No, I don't think you are completely wrong on any of this. And you're right, it's an art!
Back when I was going to lots of indoor car shows and seeing some really good customizations, I also noticed the differences in "show chrome" and "normal chrome", plus OEM chrome. Some of the better chrome shops had cut-away pieces of things they'd done, when compared to other shops and OEM chrome. I was amazed at the many layers and how thick they were, to the point were surface details were lost.
One year, at Mopar Nats, I happened upon a chrome shop vendor's tent. His work had "just enough" build thickness such that no details were lost in the "Cordoba-like" details in the displayed chrome pieces. He had the work of an alleged competitor, which looked like it had come out of a thick paste as the bulk of the details were gone, under too much build thickness.
Rather than "chrome", might those interior roof rail pieces really be a lesser grade of stamped stainless steel, that is then "polished" by "brushing" to yield that final finish texture? Not too much different than the brushed stainless finish on the '66 New Yorker wheel covers? Maybe the similar 300 wheel covers, too?
As Cybertrucks have proven, "rust" can happen on stainless steel.
Just some thoughts and observations,
CBODY67
One year, at Mopar Nats, I happened upon a chrome shop vendor's tent. His work had "just enough" build thickness such that no details were lost in the "Cordoba-like" details in the displayed chrome pieces. He had the work of an alleged competitor, which looked like it had come out of a thick paste as the bulk of the details were gone, under too much build thickness.
Rather than "chrome", might those interior roof rail pieces really be a lesser grade of stamped stainless steel, that is then "polished" by "brushing" to yield that final finish texture? Not too much different than the brushed stainless finish on the '66 New Yorker wheel covers? Maybe the similar 300 wheel covers, too?
As Cybertrucks have proven, "rust" can happen on stainless steel.
Just some thoughts and observations,
CBODY67
fury fan
Senior Member
I had some stripped of the chrome ~25 years ago so that I could paint them (the chrome was terrible and I was a poor-boy at the time). They are not stainless.
The rust pitting I had was significantly worse than the staining you can sometimes see on lesser grades of SS.
And hte final surface is not brushed like a wheelcover, it is near-chrome in appearance.
You can get that with SS, but requires labor to get there.
Personally, I'm not proficient enough to know exactly how these pieces would be made, as there are some rolled and folded-back features that suggest progressive tooling, at a minimum.
Obviously, it was possible, because they made them.
But how would such tooling/methods have worked with SS? It is much tougher to form.
Wheelcovers might be a suggestive example, but due to their circular symmetry this long slender trim might be a whole 'nother ballgame.
What I can say, though, is it's a different scenario than stamping body panels that will be painted afterward. The SS surfaces would all be visible to the customer.
After forming operations at least some part#s would have tooling marks on them, and would need a buffing/polishing operation. Might have driven 100% visual inspection?
Wheelcovers might be a suggestive example, but due to their circular symmetry this long slender trim might be a whole 'nother ballgame.
Some of these pieces would surely require polishing to be done by hand. The windshield verticals have an inside corner and a short ear that would be difficult to feed thru a machine.
Much easier nowadays with programmable robots and easy changeouts of end-of-arm tooling. Not so easy in 1965.
Maybe that wouldn't have been a show-stopper, as the bumper chroming likely had some by-hand processing in the metal polishing and then copper plating.
Maybe UAW artisans were standard fare on some things?
The rust pitting I had was significantly worse than the staining you can sometimes see on lesser grades of SS.
And hte final surface is not brushed like a wheelcover, it is near-chrome in appearance.
You can get that with SS, but requires labor to get there.
Personally, I'm not proficient enough to know exactly how these pieces would be made, as there are some rolled and folded-back features that suggest progressive tooling, at a minimum.
Obviously, it was possible, because they made them.
But how would such tooling/methods have worked with SS? It is much tougher to form.
Wheelcovers might be a suggestive example, but due to their circular symmetry this long slender trim might be a whole 'nother ballgame.
What I can say, though, is it's a different scenario than stamping body panels that will be painted afterward. The SS surfaces would all be visible to the customer.
After forming operations at least some part#s would have tooling marks on them, and would need a buffing/polishing operation. Might have driven 100% visual inspection?
Wheelcovers might be a suggestive example, but due to their circular symmetry this long slender trim might be a whole 'nother ballgame.
Some of these pieces would surely require polishing to be done by hand. The windshield verticals have an inside corner and a short ear that would be difficult to feed thru a machine.
Much easier nowadays with programmable robots and easy changeouts of end-of-arm tooling. Not so easy in 1965.
Maybe that wouldn't have been a show-stopper, as the bumper chroming likely had some by-hand processing in the metal polishing and then copper plating.
Maybe UAW artisans were standard fare on some things?
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The A-pillar items would be chromed, for sure. I was suggesting the upper roof rail trim ONLY would be the brushed stainless material, as it was not in anybody's plain line of sight, usually unnoticed and unseen. Hence, a less-intense finishing process.
CBODY67
CBODY67
fury fan
Senior Member
Ah yes, you did specify roof rail, I missed that.
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