Determining replacement piston ring size...?

V Scott Senter

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I'm refreshing a 140,000 mile non-hipo 383 4-bbl for my 1969 Newport convertible. (Not the original 90,000 mile 383 2-bbl engine, which is seized after losing all coolant from a rusted original lower hose spring clamp. It will require re-boring, pistons, etc...). I've cleaned everything up. Measured the bores. Maximum bore wear is at top of cyl. #4, with a measurement of 4.2534" along with minimum bore wear of 4.2508" at bottom, for a total taper of 0.0026". These numbers don't indicate a need for a re-bore. All cylinder bores and pistons look great! Gotta love Mopar blocks for their longevity!

My question is, what piston ring size is appropriate? Standard or an available 0.005" oversize? Any advantage to using the oversize rings with the standard size pistons after honing? Or is the standard piston ring size sufficient for good cylinder sealing given the wear and after any honing?

Thanks for all the advice in advance! My first engine build...!

Scott

Cylinder 4.JPG
 
The .005 would let you tune the ring end gap to your own spec when the std may have a little extra clearance. Make sure to check gap either way. If you are measuring the bore that precisely you probably are good
Get a good fine ball hone for the cyl bore and just deglaze the walls. They follow the bore better and dont try to actually hone the shape of the bore.
Enjoy the build. There is few thrills equal to the first fire on a rebuild to me.
 
While the numbers tend to look good for "no unusual wear", are the bores round? Looks like the pistons are still in their holes? The older service manuals used to mention using a "ridge reamer" to get rid of that upper ridge in the cylinder walls just to get the pistons out.

What you're seeing is just the top of the cylinder bore, but with no vertical marks, probably no scoring on the piston skirts.

Consider that the bore taper is a wear issue, although it can still be "in specs", but that when the engine was originally built, there was no bore taper.

So, what is the orientation? To just "ring and bearing" it, to do a minimum over-bore with new pistons/rings/bearings?

In the "normal machine shop" world of small block Chevies, it usually took a .030" overbore to get the bores cleaned up, just into "new metal". This non-tapered bore would make things work better for longer, with good machine work. Easier to gap the rings, too.

But, from what I've seen, getting new pistons for a B/RB engine that will accurately match what's in there can be difficult. First thing is that in the later '80s, many piston manufacturers lowered the piston pin location about .020" to help decrease the mechanical compression ratio to better work with the lower octane fuels as had then. A minor thing to me. Then it seemed that as some of the older piston makers vanished, most of the B pistons became more generic in their specs, trending toward 2bbl specs ( or lower CR) than 4bbl specs for 4bbl motors. Have to really check the casting number on the bottom side of the factory pistons to see this. That's with the normal cast pistons (which is what was in the engines from the factory). If you want to go to forged pistons, then things can change a bit, by observation, as that then gets into the NHRA-approved pistons for each engine, in the stock classes.

Cast pistons need a somewhat "tight" skirt clearance, but forged pistons need to be looser due to their greater expansion from cold to hot. Hypereutetics are supposed to be "cast clearances, forged strength", I believe.

If possible, I think I'd head toward cast pistons as they, being a bit softer, could be "easier on the block, as to wear", than the harder forged Hypereutectic pistons. Plus being a bit less expensive. Make sure they have the expansion struts near the piston pin, as the factory pistons did.

UNTIL you get the pistons out, don't order anything! You could well find that at the bottom of the ring's contact area on the bore might have a "wear area" that can reflect the "start/stop" motion of the piston, possibly not unlike what you see on the top of the bore, just not quite so pronounced.

From the initial measurements you made, order rings for the smallest dimension, not the largest. Ordering for the largest would certainly mean that you'd have to gap EACH ring to ensure that when it collapsed as it encountered the smaller dimensions, THAT's what the ring gap would need to be set at so no binding might occur, lest the ends of the rings touch in that spot of the bore. NOT a desired situation. If you ordered for the min bore size, with each ring gapped to that dimension, then ring tension might open up the ring gap at the top of the piston travel, which could lead to an ineffective seal, possibly. As it is, when the pistons/rings were installed at the factory, they were all gapped the same and the wear situation is something they've learned to accommodate with time "together".

IF all you're wanting is to just put rings in it, with nothing other than a dingle-berry hone job, than get a machinists rule and insert EACH ring to the bottom of its travel on the cylinder wall and set the ring gap THERE. This should ensure that the rings don't end-touch in that area, but still use their spring tension to maintain some contact at the upper end of their piston travel. To me, THAT would be the best way to do things.

As for what was in the parts books, the "Std" or .005" OS pistons were usually used for warranty repairs where the cylinder was not damaged. If it required an over-bore per se, that work usually went to a trusted machine shop to be done OR a warranty replacement motor was procured from Chrysler, typically.

Using the existing pistons would also mean that the rotating assembly would not need to be balanced. Most aftermarket pistons are heavier than the stock pistons, which might mean the engine would need to be balanced to the new pistons, for best results. In that realm, there are also "Over-balance" and "Under-balance" strategies, depending upon what rpm range the engine will live in. So, keeping everything at "factory balance" would be good, if possible.

How do the crank journals measure out? Plastigage can work well, here, rather than using mics.

Many years ago, a friend had a C-30 Chevy 2-car hauler truck, 454 of course. He was getting some oil consumption, so figured it was time for a rebuilt, but when he took the heads off, it all looked pretty good. At the recommendation of our machine shop associate (who'd built the particular engine years prior), he put "chrome-moly" rings back into the engine. NO re-hone, just put them back into the existing bore surfaces. Which worked just fine. IF it hadn't, we'd heard grumpblings about having to do it again.

The "chrome-moly" upper rings are a chrome-surface ring with a channel of "moly" in the middle of the cylinder wall contact surface. Chrysler used them in many of their HP engines in the later '60s and probably up into the middle '70s. The moly, in addition to being a non-wear substance, also is allegedly porous enough to absorb a bit of oil to ensure that top ring has some lubrication during extreme use. Plus, it needs a slicker bore surface to work with than a normal chrome-faced ring. So, with the used bore surface, it worked just fine.

IF you do use the dingle-berry hone, DO ensure that you match the factory hone pattern, with the specified angle between the cross-hatches.

Be sure to use quality gaskets. even if the head gaskets might be "composition" gaskets of .040" compressed thickness. For a stock rebuild, don't need anything really fancy, just good stuff of at least OEM quality.

Enjoy!
CBODY67
 
you are going to need to remove the ridge at the top of the cylinder no matter what rings you end up with. personally i would try the +5 thousandths and file to fit. make sure to check your end gap at various depths of the bore. also make sure your ring lands are perfectly clean. the slightest amount of carbon build up or grit can break your new rings. the bores wear on the outside more due to the V engines design, so you will never achieve a great seal without an overbore. you should be able to perk it up a little though.
 
Prob would have been better to leave the original stuff in there if it was a place holder. But since it's apart now...
You need a ridge reamer to remove the step at the top. Leaving it in place may damage the new rings. High likelihood IMO, but sometimes you can get away with not removing it.
Get std bore rings and just put them in. The ring gap itself is not that critical, expecially when your bores are not round and straight. The .005 sets as noted are for file-to-fit builds where the bores are straight and round (because they were machined that way).
 
Thanks for all the advice guys! I plan on removing the ridges with my ridge reamer. I'm using the original pistons (all cleaned up, including ring lands) and just putting new rings, bearings, cam, lifters and timing set in bottom end. I've cleaned all but the crank and oil pick-up/pan assembly. Everything looked great! The only failure I noted was the first camshaft bearing was completely cracked. Not sure what caused it, but it stayed intact until I removed the camshaft. I'll have my local machine shop press in the new camshaft bearings.

The cylinder taper varied from 0.0009 to the 0.0026 on #4, most between 0.001 and 0.002, pretty minimal if you ask me. It sounds like standard ring size will work just fine, but I'll probably go with chrome-moly rings. I will be checking ring gaps and plastigauge the crank journals.
cylinders 2_4_6_8.JPG

I don't want to do much to this engine other than a "freshening up" as I will probably do a major rebuild on the seized original engine at a later date. The 383-4bbl engine I've got apart is from a 1969 (Polara 500 I parted out 8 years ago w/bad rust). It has the hi-po exhaust manifolds and dual intake snorkel, along with the original 4-bbl Carter. Should be a much better performing engine than the 383-2bbl! Especially with the intake/exhaust port matching and de-burring I did last summer on the heads and added dual exhaust!

The 1969 Newport convertible has been off the road since 1979 and only has 90K miles. Factory A/C, power steering/brakes. NO rust! Interior (black vinyl) nearly perfect. Needs some dent work and new paint.
DSCN1564.JPG


Passenger side.JPG
 
The inside of my 90k miles original 383 2bl looks exactly the same except a little more bore wear requiring os. Little other wear but a delaminated/cracked 1st cam bearing. At a loss for cause of this myself. Can you post a pic of cam bearing?
Are you familiar with block prep at all? Look carefully at threaded holes and usually they are pulled up a bit. Take time to countersink a little and clean threads before assembly. Are you hot tanking the block? Where are you sourcing parts? Been researching for mine while waiting to order and found a few places that look interesting but looking for more info.
Hi volume oil pump is highly recommended on these as well
 
Agreed, chrome moly will never seat and tear up your block if you were to make ring like that.
Chrome rings are very specialized.
Moly or molybdenum coated /impregnated are really plain iron with slippery wear prevention on them.
As mentioned above plain iron with no additives will seat best, that's the reason the factory used them to seat under not so perfect conditions.
Chevrolet learned this lesson in 1955 with the 265 SBC, which the fix became dumping cleanser down the carburetor at a certain RPM to seat the rings. The sheep are easily fooled.
 
The inside of my 90k miles original 383 2bl looks exactly the same except a little more bore wear requiring os. Little other wear but a delaminated/cracked 1st cam bearing. At a loss for cause of this myself. Can you post a pic of cam bearing?
Are you familiar with block prep at all? Look carefully at threaded holes and usually they are pulled up a bit. Take time to countersink a little and clean threads before assembly. Are you hot tanking the block? Where are you sourcing parts? Been researching for mine while waiting to order and found a few places that look interesting but looking for more info.
Hi volume oil pump is highly recommended on these as well

I will have to get a photo of the cracked 1st cam bearing. I've been using a How to rebuild Mopar big block book + the factory service manual. The block was cleaned (now get this!) with a pressurized garden sprayer, toothbrushes and Oil Eater cleaner/detergent in my storage unit. It took me about 3 days of multiple cleanings to get it clean.

I will consult with my machine shop when it comes time to have the cam bearings inserted regarding any need for hot tanking and will have them do a thread check. Everything is exceptionally clean (including all oil galleys). I was lucky as there was no sludge in the engine, just oily/carbon blow by. I've been getting 95% of my parts from RockAuto, most at ridiculously low wholesale closeout prices (including a complete Fel-Pro gasket set and 16 Sealed Power lifters, 3 exhaust valves, hoses/belts and tune-up parts). I've also got a high volume oil pump from eBay. Another great source for parts is Summit Racing.com.
 
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