Engine Advice Needed

[rugbyjon112]

Good afternoon all. I recently discovered that the original 318 for my recently purchased 1969 Fury III has major cracks in the block due to improper winter storage. I purchased a low mileage 318 with a date code of 1977 as a replacement. The question I have is will I need to do any modifications to install this engine or will it bolt right up?

 

[1970FuryConv]

Good afternoon all. I recently discovered that the original 318 for my recently purchased 1969 Fury III has major cracks in the block due to improper winter storage. I purchased a low mileage 318 with a date code of 1977 as a replacement. The question I have is will I need to do any modifications to install this engine or will it bolt right up?

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It will bolt right up.
318 is low compression, so you may want to consider higher compression pistons in the future.
Also, that rubber expanding seal in the side of the block is prone to leakage. Recommend you replace with a brass core plug. You can seal the core plug with Permatex #2.

 

[CBODY67]

I would highly syspectg it should "bolt right in" with no issues . . . BUT there might be some differences in the motor mount type and mounting, between the model years involved. Also, there might be some differences in the way the accessories mount to the block, which could mean that you use the '77 items with the '77 engine rather than swapping the '69 items onto the '77 block.

Otherwise, the '77 motor's compression ratio might be closer to 8.5 as the '69 motor would be 9.2? NOT a huge difference by the time it all gets to the rear wheels. Might put a few more degrees into the base timing of the '77 as long as it does not ping?

The '77 engine (if it still has it) would have electronic ignition, but the '69 distributor should go into the later motor, I would suspect (if the LAs were like the B/RB motors). Using the '69 carb should be OK, too.

With the '77 still out of the car, you might pop out the freeze plugs and replace them with new brass ones. Easier to do it out of the car than with the engine in the car!

For similar reasons, you might want to change the oil pan gasket. This can also give you an idea of what's in the pan and clean it out, for good measure.

A good idea to change the timing chain set, too. The one in there might still be good, BUT consider this an "insurance move" to ensure a LONG and trouble-free service life for the motor. Do douse the chain and sproketr in oil after you change it for lube when it initially starts.

As a part of getting things ready, change ALL of the rubber fuel lines between the tank and the carburetor with new OEM-spec (or better) fuel lines. Another "insurance move".

Just some suggestions. Your judgment call as to what you do.

Enjoy!
CBODY67

 

[MONC440]

The blocks will be the same. As mentioned the compression will be bad on the 77 and it might have emissions heads that are less than ideal. With that rubber freeze plug I would make sure that block is good, whenever I see them I always consider why it was installed, was that plug just leaking and corroded or was it pushed out from freezing. If none of the other plugs are pushed out it is probably ok. I do not know your mechanical ability but if I were you I would just use the 77 block and swap all your 69 guts into the new block. The 69 crank might be forged, so that is a plus. Clean and inspect your pistons and reuse them if they are ok. Give it a nice hone job, new rings & new bearings if needed, new timing chain, all new seals and gaskets. Clean and inspect your heads, install new valve seals. This way you have 69 specs with a 77 block and with new rings it should last you for many years. If you don't know how to do all of this we can help.

 

[halifaxhops]

also make sure the timing tab is on the right side? Easy change if not while doing the timing chain.

 

[Boydsdodge]

To,bad you already bought the 318, it was a good time to drop in a 360.
The 318 is a straight swap, just do all your engine prep mentioned above before install.

 

[Toolmanmike]

It should bolt right up. Make sure the water pumps are the same and swap intake, carb, and distributor from the old engine so all that is the same. Basically, you are just using the long block (block, internals and heads) And like mentioned, replace those expansion plugs.

 

[Big_John]

Agree with replacing all the core plugs before installing the motor... Much easier out of the car. I'd also give some thought to replacing the timing chain. They deteriorate with age just as much as mileage. Again, a lot easier out of the car.

 

[Toolmanmike]

Agree with replacing all the core plugs before installing the motor... Much easier out of the car. I'd also give some thought to replacing the timing chain. They deteriorate with age just as much as mileage. Again, a lot easier out of the car.

"while you are at it" does make sense. The OP can take the distributor cap off and turn the lower crank pulley back and forth and note how much movement in the crank before the rotor starts to turn. That will show how much slop there is in the timing set. I haven't heard of a particular measurement for how much is too much but a little common sense will tell you if there's too much. What would you say John, 10° is too much? I would be pretty comfortable with 5° or less on a used engine. We don't drive our cars 25,000 miles a year so a slightly worn timing set may last a decade or more. Or replace it when the engine is out and on the stand for peace of mind.

 

[Big_John]

"while you are at it" does make sense. The OP can take the distributor cap off and turn the lower crank pulley back and forth and note how much movement in the crank before the rotor starts to turn. That will show how much slop there is in the timing set. I haven't heard of a particular measurement for how much is too much but a little common sense will tell you if there's too much. What would you say John, 10° is too much? I would be pretty comfortable with 5° or less on a used engine. We don't drive our cars 25,000 miles a year so a slightly worn timing set may last a decade or more. Or replace it when the engine is out and on the stand for peace of mind.

I don't think I've ever seen any guidelines to how much "slop" is OK.

I've seen the plastic toothed cam gear fail on a lot of engines though. I think they can get brittle with age and fail even on a low mileage engine, so it could check OK today and then fail tomorrow.

Then again, it could run forever.

 

[rugbyjon112]

I would highly syspectg it should "bolt right in" with no issues . . . BUT there might be some differences in the motor mount type and mounting, between the model years involved. Also, there might be some differences in the way the accessories mount to the block, which could mean that you use the '77 items with the '77 engine rather than swapping the '69 items onto the '77 block.

Otherwise, the '77 motor's compression ratio might be closer to 8.5 as the '69 motor would be 9.2? NOT a huge difference by the time it all gets to the rear wheels. Might put a few more degrees into the base timing of the '77 as long as it does not ping?

The '77 engine (if it still has it) would have electronic ignition, but the '69 distributor should go into the later motor, I would suspect (if the LAs were like the B/RB motors). Using the '69 carb should be OK, too.

With the '77 still out of the car, you might pop out the freeze plugs and replace them with new brass ones. Easier to do it out of the car than with the engine in the car!

For similar reasons, you might want to change the oil pan gasket. This can also give you an idea of what's in the pan and clean it out, for good measure.

A good idea to change the timing chain set, too. The one in there might still be good, BUT consider this an "insurance move" to ensure a LONG and trouble-free service life for the motor. Do douse the chain and sproketr in oil after you change it for lube when it initially starts.

As a part of getting things ready, change ALL of the rubber fuel lines between the tank and the carburetor with new OEM-spec (or better) fuel lines. Another "insurance move".

Just some suggestions. Your judgment call as to what you do.

Enjoy!
CBODY67

Thank you for the answer!

The '77 engine actually sounded pretty good before it was taken out, but I understand what you mean. I was actually considering converting the car to electronic ignition.

I'm planning on using my intake and carb from my '69 block on this engine.

I have a complete set of freeze plugs on order for the '77 engine. I was planning on dropping the oil pan after I pull them out and flushing the engine to get all the crud out of it.

That's a good point about the timing chain and gear set. I hadn't considered that, but you're right, that's a reasonably cheap insurance policy.

 

[rugbyjon112]

The blocks will be the same. As mentioned the compression will be bad on the 77 and it might have emissions heads that are less than ideal. With that rubber freeze plug I would make sure that block is good, whenever I see them I always consider why it was installed, was that plug just leaking and corroded or was it pushed out from freezing. If none of the other plugs are pushed out it is probably ok. I do not know your mechanical ability but if I were you I would just use the 77 block and swap all your 69 guts into the new block. The 69 crank might be forged, so that is a plus. Clean and inspect your pistons and reuse them if they are ok. Give it a nice hone job, new rings & new bearings if needed, new timing chain, all new seals and gaskets. Clean and inspect your heads, install new valve seals. This way you have 69 specs with a 77 block and with new rings it should last you for many years. If you don't know how to do all of this we can help.

Thank you for the answer! When I talked to the person I bought it from about the rubber freeze plugs, he said he put those in because the one that was in that spot was weeping a little. I put that in because he already had it and was on a tight budget. As for swapping my "'69 guts", I'm looking for a replacement '69 block that I can put my internals in. I had a lead on one, but it sold before I could get it.

 

[MONC440]

As for swapping my "'69 guts", I'm looking for a replacement '69 block that I can put my internals in. I had a lead on one, but it sold before I could get it.

Being a 318 car and with your original block already toast I don't see why you would want to wait for a 69 block when you have a good 77 block. A lot of work getting the engine ready as is then installing it to later remove it and put in the correct year block? I mean the car can never be numbers matching again anyway. I would do it now once and be done with it. And if you go thru the engine and heads now you know it will be right. Now if you are in a time crunch or have limited budget for the build I get that, many times I had to do what I could afford verses doing what should be done.

 

[Big_John]

the car can never be numbers matching again

You can't see any date codes from the driver seat.

 

[Toolmanmike]

Being a 318 car and with your original block already toast I don't see why you would want to wait for a 69 block when you have a good 77 block. A lot of work getting the engine ready as is then installing it to later remove it and put in the correct year block? I mean the car can never be numbers matching again anyway. I would do it now once and be done with it. And if you go thru the engine and heads now you know it will be right. Now if you are in a time crunch or have limited budget for the build I get that, many times I had to do what I could afford verses doing what should be done.

I see your point but you either have the original engine or you don't. A replacement engine, can be anything because it's not the original.

 

[CBODY67]

You can't see any date codes from the driver seat.

Nor does it many any more power to the rear wheels. It can make $$$$ differences on fully-collector-grade cars, though.

 

[rugbyjon112]

You can't see any date codes from the driver seat.

Agreed, but those numbers all mean something when/if you ever sell it.

 

[rugbyjon112]

Being a 318 car and with your original block already toast I don't see why you would want to wait for a 69 block when you have a good 77 block. A lot of work getting the engine ready as is then installing it to later remove it and put in the correct year block? I mean the car can never be numbers matching again anyway. I would do it now once and be done with it. And if you go thru the engine and heads now you know it will be right. Now if you are in a time crunch or have limited budget for the build I get that, many times I had to do what I could afford verses doing what should be done.

You are 100% correct. It will never be a numbers matching car again. To be honest, I’ve been kicking around the idea of forgoing the 318 altogether and putting a 383 or 440 in it. I’m seeing some good prices for non-HP 440 blocks. I have a fresh big block 727 that I’m not using.

 

[MONC440]

You are 100% correct. It will never be a numbers matching car again. To be honest, I’ve been kicking around the idea of forgoing the 318 altogether and putting a 383 or 440 in it. I’m seeing some good prices for non-HP 440 blocks. I have a fresh big block 727 that I’m not using.

Now you are talking. You will never regret swapping in a big block.

 

[MONC440]

You can't see any date codes from the driver seat.

That's my point. The 77 318 is going to be less power than the original 69 318 that was IMO already underpowered for our cars. Swapping the guts from the 69 into the 77 block would at least get it back to the original power.