GM responds to the 65 Mopars...

mikes2nd

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It's almost a "nuh uh, im rubber your glue" response...

Gm was like torsion bars suck! Chrysler was like springs suck!
Bumpers... same thing...



Mopar link version is in the description.

I do like the flush and wash rockers venting... I'm curious how much that did affect the rockers.
 
As the presentation was from Chevrolet, you can expect THEIR cars will come out ahead in any comparison of facts.

"Flush and Dry" rocker panels had been around for several years prior. IF normal air could get to the to keep them dry (and allegedly less prone to rust), then salty coastal air could get in there and you know what happens with salty air, moisture, and unpainted metal.

If the Chevrolets had better "roadability", why was the Plymouth a favorite of law enforcement in areas where 70+mph pursuit speeds could happen?

A Chevy salesperson that was really a sales person would have upsold any wagon buyer into at least a 283 2bbl standard V-8 station wagon, so much of that dialogue about "more power team choices" is mostly rhetoric. We all know how well the TorqueFlite was compared to a PowerGlide 2-spd automatic anyway.

Acrylic Enamel is a much more durable paint than any acrylic lacquer ever could be. Which means that a 5 yr old Fury was worth more than a similar Impala, even back then. AL is easier and less expensive to repair, especially in a somewhat dusty environment, than AE is, by the nature of how "wet" the paint is and stays until it gets cured. AL dries from the top down as AE skins over and dries from the bottom up, as I recall hearing. Look at some of the older factory videos and you'll see that GM's AL was polished on the assy line. A correctly-sprayed AE finish does not need that.

Those "itty-bitty" Impala tail lights were not nearly as visible as the larger-lens/reflector Plymouth tail lights, especially in poor visibility conditions.

The large-radius curves of GM sheet metal, back then, compared to the similar and neater small-radius curves of the Chrysler sheet metal gave ANY Chrysler product a neat and crisper look, rather than GM's curvasive styling . . . on ANY carline. Guess which one cost less to stamp?

The turning diameter of the Chryslers was more than any GM car, back then. But I figured out that the Ackerman angles of the Chrysler steering linkage were much more correct than anything GM did back then, especially as to turning angles of the front wheels. But things as that were more than compensated for by the way the Chrysler products acted on the road, to me.

If you look at some of the Forward Look product comparison videos, it was very easy for Chrysler to beat up on GM vehicles, especially the size of the cargo area on full-size station wagons. Chrysler won those comparisons easily. So with the new '65 bodies, GM fought back, plus adding the Auto Level Control (imported from Cadillac, possibly), too. Wonder how many Chevy wagons actually got that upscale option? The forgot to mention the Chevy availability of "Comfortron" Automatic A/C or tilt-telescope steering columns, which Chrysler didn't have back in 1965. Of course, they neglected to mention how hot those 3rd seats might become in a Chevy wagon, whereas Chrysler large-wagons could have DUAL A/C to keep things cool back there.

Enjoy!
CBODY67
 
You are preaching to the choir. I think we are all Mopar fans here. I became a hard core Mopar fan when my older brother bought a brand new 1957 Plymouth Belvedere. It had the 301 V8 with a 4-barrel, duals and a Torqueflite. I got my 57 in 1964.
 
As I was growing up in the 60’s and 70’s, my dad would buy a new car every 3 to 4 years. The first car I remember was his 1965 Falcon Sprint convertible with a V8 and bucket seats. He traded it in for a 1968 Dodge Charger in late 1967 and was the envy of the neighborhood. Unfortunately that car got totaled by my mom in in 1969 which then prompted the purchase of his 1970 Plymouth Barracuda. 1973 my dad completed his college education and along with his BA degree received a promotion at work to an executive position. That prompted his first personal luxury car… a 1973 top of the line Buick Regal with a 350 4V, white wall tires, clothes interior and 8 track stereo. By 1976 the Buick had degraded to junk as the engine skipped time, the vinyl top pealed, the interior shredded, while the Family Cuda still ran great and looked even better. My dad was so disappointed in the Buick he gave it away and bought a 1977 Chrysler Cordoba, loaded to the gills with rich Corinthian leather, Vector looking wheels, dual striped white wall tires, 360 V8 4 barrel carburetor that sounded like a police interceptor if you flipped the lid on the air cleaner. 1978 I got my drivers license and got the Cuda, and my dad had his Chrysler. Our driveway was the coolest in the neighborhood! Needless to say, I learned at an early age, GM products were junk and Chrysler products could stand the test of time.
 
I have watched a handful of Dealer Promo videos on "the tube" including one for a Royal Monaco from 1977, it pooh poohs GM's downsized Caprice, which is ironic considering it's the last year for all the "BIG CAR" stuff they were touting. To continue with GM's '65 offering, I have two very good friends. One will be 100 in December the other is 89. They both worked at Wickline Chevrolet together in the 60's in Rocky Mount VA. They have both told me many stories about the good old days. The 89 year old, Harold, absolutely hates 1965 Chevrolet full size cars. To quote "They're junk, they were junk when new, they are junk now!" Mack, the 100 year old agrees. Why? Let me start at the front and work my way to the back.
The ten year change was supposed to be a completely new car, and in many respects it was. However, R&D didn't finish their work or the main office said to hell with it and pushed the new design through with the idea "we'll fix it in the field"

1)The first is the small blocks, this started a few years earlier. The blocks went from being drilled through the mains to scooped for lack of a better term. The mains weren't true from front to back that coupled with the accessories being mounted way up high, pulling up on the crank snout the mains would wipe out generally within months of purchase. The fix from GM was a new block and main bearings. Not a new engine, just the block. So the mechanic would have to tear down the engine and take everything out and put it all in the new block. Generally, within months it would come back for the same problem. So, they would then send the block to Fischer's in Roanoke have it line bored and have the crank trued up then rebuild it. Problem solved.

2) The steering geometry was all wrong, if you were in a gravel lot the outside tire would slide or get dragged when the wheels were at full lock. If it was asphalt the tire would bounce and jump. A new drag link would have to be installed. This one would have a new part number. So, Gm new before the dealers and the techs.

3) First year for a fully synchronized 3 speed manual. Most were column shift. When there was snow and ice on the ground it would get packed into the linkage assembly and you couldn't shift down into first. GM fix, a little rubber mud flap and some sheet metal screws.

4) Engine mounts would snap on the power (driver) side. Causing all kinds of issues. GM fix, a little cable the could catch the engine from locking the throttle linkage wide open.

5) The new 12 bolt rear end. First year issue. Leaking at the axle tubes where they are pressed into the rear end. GM would not allow the dealers to weld up the tube, they sent a new housing, that was welded. Then you could completely rebuild the rear end with the new housing. Eventually the techs would just weld up the old housing.

6) The last one I can remember is the overall body shape. While I think it's beautiful, it was too big to hold itself in place. Customers would complain of a weird "kathunk" noise that happened without rhyme or reason. Every tech, salesman, even Mr. Wickline himself tried to diagnose it. Finally the smallest guy there, I don't remember his name, climbed in the truck and Harold drove down the road. After a few times the noise came and went, he figured it out. The quarter panel was buckling under its own weight. The noise was the sheet metal popping back in place. The fix? Look in the trunk and you'll see two huge girders. It turned out to be a running change, the ones that were there in the car in the beginning weren't big enough to do the job. So, GM would send a pair of larger units to the dealer per car. Harold said a lot went out with the new ones welded right on top of the old ones.
These were the biggest and doesn't even touch on the build quality of the "finished" cars when they arrived.
He still owns a mint 64 Impala with 62k on it and has owned several 66's but will never even consider owning a 65. Keep in mind all this stuff was under warranty. These guys made 3 dollars an hour and got a third of that for warranty work. They had their hands full for quite literally nothing. On top of that their Corvair was a warranty nightmare too at the same time.
When they say "They don't build them like they used to" it's probably a good thing.
 
My late machine shop operative was a Chevy line mechanic in the later 1960s at a large dealership. Then he went out on his own with a shop and then later a machine shop. He mentioned one day that a guy brought in a small block V-8 with about 100K on it to be rebuilt. Tommy noted that the bottom of the #1 main bearing had minimal wear on it, but the top half was worn worse than normal. He asked if I knew what might have caused it? I looked puzzled, then he told me. Keeping the belts too tight. The continual upward pull on the nose of the crank, he said. I had no reason to doubt his diagnosis, but it made sense at the time.

Even into the late 1970s, it generally took Chevy/GM THREE model years before the new models "were right" and warranty claims slowed down. By the later 1990s, the spikes in warranty claims on new vehicles were much shorter in duration, but still happened. "Running Changes" were still happening with many TSBs issues for particular problems. In about the 1988 model year, maybe 1987, it seemed like that every month, a new TSB was issues for some problem with how the new TBI systems operated, for both the 350s and 454s. The only places the new part numbers existed was in the TSBs. If we ordered the ones in the parts books, they would not be correct. For all of these things to happen in the same model year meant that THEY knew the issues when the vehicles went into production so then they could get the supplier to build what they needed and have it in a few months of when the vehicles were on sale.

GM and others, but seemingly especially GM, are concerned with the price to get the vehicle to the end of the assy line. Which governs what goes on the base-equipment/engine/model vehicle. That generated the advertised MSRP, too. So "the better stuff" would be in the optional engine equipment, where the additional cost could be covered in the price of the option or higher-priced model's MSRP. The car rental companies knew this and GM catered to them, too, by putting better trim materials in the upgrade interior options of the base vehicles. Having a car from the rental fleet with a worn interior helps no one, period. So knowing how to order a vehicle was important.

Another area where the additional cost for better materials in the optional engines was in the particular mix of cast iron used in the engine blocks. Differences which can be heard in the sound of the boring bar when the block is cut for new pistons (which usually ended up being .030" cuts. The inline 6-cyl and base 283/307 V-8s got the softer mix, but the 350s got the harder mix. On the 350s, the motor would use more effort to do the cuts. On the I-6 and 283/307 blocks, it cut them "like butter", by comparison.

Tommy had been in the service dept and I was in parts, at different times, but we could talk about LOTS of things he saw and I learned about from out different "entry points". LOTS of interesting things! But once I learned how GM (and OEMs) operate, what is important to the various areas of the entities, THEN a lot of things tend to fall into place and are understandable. Doesn't make then the best way to do things for the customer, but makes sense to the financial people involved "in corporate". Back then, as now, a dealer's best service customer is GM.

Just some recollections and observations,
CBODY67
 
I'm sure it's like this in any manufacturing process. With every company. I've been a GM guy my whole life. Moreover a car guy. So, if i like the car I don't care who built it. Being a parts salesman for the past almost 20 years gives you an idea on which brands or models to steer clear of. Listening to two older and more experienced gentlemen tell basically the same story at two different times in a small town dealer cements it for me. I wonder how much time was lost nationally getting the cars "right" or more importantly how many customers were lost.
 
On the customer issue, if a customer basically liked the product and the PEOPLE they were dealing with, then no harm for the indiscretions of the OEM. If the PEOPLE at the dealership were not trying to address the problem, even if they were not completely successful, then "the customer has choices" and sought to use them. First with the same brand, then another brand in that order.

There were clear, consistent "fails" in some areas (as in the aftermarket radios we sold as an option to the factory OEM radios), but we swapped out the radios for another one, under the radio maker's warranty, as we had them in stock, and all was well, for example. Later, many of these radio issues were discovered to be because of our installer's wiring methods.

In general, it seemed that our customers gave GM a "wide berth" on warranty issues and they came back for their next vehicle when the time came. But if Chrysler had one little burp, it was front page news, by comparison. The Aspen/Volare cars seemed to keep Chrysler's name in front of people. Things which might be "there" because too many financial corners were seeking to be cut pre-bankruptcy and federal loan guarantees (which were "chickenfeed" compared to what came later!!).

Every OEM has issues from time to time, whether it be "delaminating" paint, automatic transmissions, poor engine performance, or whatever. Most last for a year or so and then vanish, to be replaced by something else later on.

In the case of loci-up torque converters, Chrysler set theirs to lock-up at about 27mph, out of the normal driving speeds. That early of a speed meant decreased acceleration performance until you got close to WOT or used enough throttle to trigger a part-throttle kickdown. Later, by 1980, they had raised it to about 53mph, which worked better.

GM used a vacuum level orientation, which meant it could happen anytime after the transmission was in "high gear". Later, some could lock-up in 2nd gear. Many customers complained of "a skip", but nobody seemingly linked that "feel" to converter lock-up, initially. So as it was diagnosed to be "a miss", it went for an early tune-up, which did not fix the issue, no matter how many new spark plugs the customer paid for. We also sold lots of GM "rock" fuel filters in an effort to get rid of an off-idle hesitation, which was usually caused by an emissions calibration we could not address. Did not do anything except give the customer "a try to fix it" feeling which did little to really address the issue.

On my side of the deal in parts, I had always been interested in and paid attention to vehicle operations. I had put lots of miles on our pickup trucks and knew how they operated. Later, when I moved to the parts counter, when a customer called asking about things their vehicle was doing, I could ask a few questions and then tell them what was happening and why. That explanation was done in language THEY could understand. Understand these things put them more at ease, from the sound of their voices. Then, I'd tell them what it would take to diminish or eliminate that problem (which in a year or two's time period, they would have needed a deeper rear axle ratio to fix, which I also knew how much those things would cost). In those cases, I'd also offer to check the VIN of any vehicle they were considering to tell them what was in it, which I did not mind doing, being a segment of customer service that few, if any other, parts people would offer to do. Although it also gave the customer some new questions to ask their later salesperson.

In those times, all the service advisors were trained to do was to write down the customer's ocmcplaint and send the repair order to the shop for diagnosis. NO instructions on how the vehicle was designed to operate, just write the repair order and no more. NOR did they know the side issues which could cause the concerns. By comparison, at a larger and older Dodge dealer in the metro area (where I had a good friend that was in parts there), the service advisors were former technicians who COULD explain to the customers why their vehicles were acting as they were AND give them an idea of what it would take to fix it (time and money) . . . which seemed like a better, customer-oriented way of doing things. Customers want to receive credible information, not speculations, from my observations, AND appreciate getting such credible information they can understand and process.

Over 40+ years in GM parts, at the same dealership, there are many other examples I could mention, but this has already been too lengthy. Thanks for your time and consideration.

CBODY67
 
On the customer issue, if a customer basically liked the product and the PEOPLE they were dealing with, then no harm for the indiscretions of the OEM. If the PEOPLE at the dealership were not trying to address the problem, even if they were not completely successful, then "the customer has choices" and sought to use them. First with the same brand, then another brand in that order.

There were clear, consistent "fails" in some areas (as in the aftermarket radios we sold as an option to the factory OEM radios), but we swapped out the radios for another one, under the radio maker's warranty, as we had them in stock, and all was well, for example. Later, many of these radio issues were discovered to be because of our installer's wiring methods.

In general, it seemed that our customers gave GM a "wide berth" on warranty issues and they came back for their next vehicle when the time came. But if Chrysler had one little burp, it was front page news, by comparison. The Aspen/Volare cars seemed to keep Chrysler's name in front of people. Things which might be "there" because too many financial corners were seeking to be cut pre-bankruptcy and federal loan guarantees (which were "chickenfeed" compared to what came later!!).

Every OEM has issues from time to time, whether it be "delaminating" paint, automatic transmissions, poor engine performance, or whatever. Most last for a year or so and then vanish, to be replaced by something else later on.

In the case of loci-up torque converters, Chrysler set theirs to lock-up at about 27mph, out of the normal driving speeds. That early of a speed meant decreased acceleration performance until you got close to WOT or used enough throttle to trigger a part-throttle kickdown. Later, by 1980, they had raised it to about 53mph, which worked better.

GM used a vacuum level orientation, which meant it could happen anytime after the transmission was in "high gear". Later, some could lock-up in 2nd gear. Many customers complained of "a skip", but nobody seemingly linked that "feel" to converter lock-up, initially. So as it was diagnosed to be "a miss", it went for an early tune-up, which did not fix the issue, no matter how many new spark plugs the customer paid for. We also sold lots of GM "rock" fuel filters in an effort to get rid of an off-idle hesitation, which was usually caused by an emissions calibration we could not address. Did not do anything except give the customer "a try to fix it" feeling which did little to really address the issue.

On my side of the deal in parts, I had always been interested in and paid attention to vehicle operations. I had put lots of miles on our pickup trucks and knew how they operated. Later, when I moved to the parts counter, when a customer called asking about things their vehicle was doing, I could ask a few questions and then tell them what was happening and why. That explanation was done in language THEY could understand. Understand these things put them more at ease, from the sound of their voices. Then, I'd tell them what it would take to diminish or eliminate that problem (which in a year or two's time period, they would have needed a deeper rear axle ratio to fix, which I also knew how much those things would cost). In those cases, I'd also offer to check the VIN of any vehicle they were considering to tell them what was in it, which I did not mind doing, being a segment of customer service that few, if any other, parts people would offer to do. Although it also gave the customer some new questions to ask their later salesperson.

In those times, all the service advisors were trained to do was to write down the customer's ocmcplaint and send the repair order to the shop for diagnosis. NO instructions on how the vehicle was designed to operate, just write the repair order and no more. NOR did they know the side issues which could cause the concerns. By comparison, at a larger and older Dodge dealer in the metro area (where I had a good friend that was in parts there), the service advisors were former technicians who COULD explain to the customers why their vehicles were acting as they were AND give them an idea of what it would take to fix it (time and money) . . . which seemed like a better, customer-oriented way of doing things. Customers want to receive credible information, not speculations, from my observations, AND appreciate getting such credible information they can understand and process.

Over 40+ years in GM parts, at the same dealership, there are many other examples I could mention, but this has already been too lengthy. Thanks for your time and consideration.

CBODY67
Being a parts guy that works on cars on the side, many different brands, I can attest to being able to explain with first hand knowledge how a customer can fix their problem. Being in retail parts for many years it's a great feeling when some one calls to say thanks or brings an apple pie by in appreciation. Sadly most of the folks on parts counters anymore don't have that skill set or knowledge. granted being 19 yrs old and still wet behind the ears doesn't help. But, as I used to say to some customers who complained of advise given "who did you ask?" depending on their answer the next comment might have "well, there you go, she's 17. What did you expect?" That's a bit off subject..... Later!
 
Yes, those "Thanks for helping me . . ." comments and actions made me feel good. More than anyone might ever suspect. The similar compliment was when we became friends and them steady customers, in the best "people helping people" orientation.

FEW parts people understand those things today. It's all about scripts and computer menus to follow to get to the correct part (hopefully). Minimal "problem solving", by observation.

Enjoy!
CBODY67
 
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