Heavy Metal

@amazinblue82

I found a slightly better copy of the picture. Wayne State has it in their digital archives.

lodge freeway 12 4 1950 wsu.jpg


Short answer for tonight:

You are spot on with the location. That brick building is currently the U-Haul storage facility on Baltimore. It was built in 1920 as a Nabisco plant.

I don't think the locomotive is quite as large. This pic shows my thought. The curved roof end on the 1st car of the train makes me think it is a passenger coach or a baggage car.

NYC Train.jpg



I have lots of route info, and a guess on the engine type, but need to do a little research to confirm it.
Remind me if I haven't posted more in a couple of days.
 
thanks for your help @D Cluley.

Some sources use this photo for the "Davison Freeway" (America's first I think?). That aint right location.

"Nabisco" back in the day and now a U-Haul .. and 100 year-old structure and still going strong in its latest incarnation. Cool.

source: NABISCO factory | Historic Detroit
1702477187819.png


today, CN (Canadian National) owns that track (?). the likely RR owner's name (though the RR track's "owner" and "user" weren't necessarily same for a given "road") in '50's is on overpass siding over the northbound Lodge lanes. the WSU pick is much clearer but I cant quite make out name -- "_______ Central ________"

I concluded that's probably an "American" RR name, perhaps changing hands a couple times before winding up today as a CN property/affiliate.

I like your take on engine/tender. The clearer pic was very helpful - its not as big as i thought, therefore could be a "yard engine" or other short haul locomotive of some sort?

Whatever you found on route system should/could hone in on the RR, in turn hopefully leading to some vintage info/pics on their steam rigs (boiler has three distinctive side pipes on on its side) from that era.

Thanks for the expert sleuthing!
 
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@amazinblue82
I'm sorry, I'm big into railroads & forget that not everyone is. Didn't realize you couldn't read the sign on the bridge.

The sign, the bridge & presumably the train are all New York Central.

You weren't quite right with the CN thought, but very close. Notice there are 2 parallel bridges there, each with a pair of tracks. In 1950 the south bridge would have been NYC & the north bridge was Grand Trunk Western. If you follow those tracks back to the SW, the north side of the bridge over I-96 still has a "GT" sign on it. GTW was one of the US subsidiaries of Canadian National which was mostly owned by the Canadian Govt. About 25 years ago, they spun it off as a private company, and since then they have absorbed the various US operations into just being CN. So the tracks in the background are CN.

Meanwhile, the NYC became half of the ill-fated Penn Central merger in 1968, which became a large part of the much more successful Conrail in 1976. In 1999, The other 2 large eastern RR, CSX & Norfolk Southern bought Conrail and each took half. Detroit is one of a couple of areas where their two sets of operations & the Conrail tracks were so intertwined that they couldn't come up with an equitable way to divide it up. So most of the former NYC trackage in and around Detroit is owned and operated by Conrail Shared Assets, which is jointly owned by the other two.

While the train is headed generally East here, the railroad would consider it a Northbound, as this line started in Toledo OH and ended up in Mackinaw City. These days it ends in the north Detroit suburb of Utica, although some other sections farther north are still in use by other small railroads.

As I said before, my gut says that is a passenger car behind the locomotive which is fine as at that point there were still 2 passenger trains a day from Detroit to Mackinaw. My only concern is the time of day seems off a little. I don't have a 1950 timetable handy, but looking at several others from the '40s-'60s the daytime northbound seems to have always been scheduled for a Detroit departure between 8-9 am. If this photo is that early on a December morning, I would expect the shadows to be more pronounced to the left of the cars on the highway. That said, given how clean the road surface looks, the photographer may have done quite a bit of touchup work on the picture.

As to the specific type of locomotive, we can narrow it down considerably, but I'm not sure an exact type can be determined.

The three clues I see are the high rounded dome behind the smokestack, the tapered section in the middle of the boiler, and the overall size of the engine.
nyc train 2.jpg


Comparing to a couple of reasonably known dimensions, I think the overall length of the loco & tender is around 70 feet. While there is lots & lots of information online about NYC steam power, actual lengths of different classes has proven to be surprisingly difficult to find. I suspect I can find what I need in some actual books I have, but they aren't handy tonight, so will have to come back to that.

Regardless, that length probably eliminates any switch engines (0-6-0 or 0-8-0 types) and also any of their larger newer engines. (4-8-4, 4-8-2 or 4-6-4 types).

The other clues also eliminate the larger engines. I'm not sure the engineering behind it, but early steam engines typically had that sort of boiler that narrowed in the front with the tapered section, but by the '30s-'40s boilers were usually nearly straight. Also, the NYC like most of the Eastern railroads had fairly tight clearances, so as the engines got bigger anything on top of the boiler tended to be pretty low profile to keep the overall height under control.

These are pics of NYC 4-8-4 & 4-6-4 engines. Note the much flatter top profile.

NYC 4-8-4.jpg


NYC 4-6-4 Hudson.jpg


What I think is most likely is the sort of medium sized engine that were built before 1930, but still in use in secondary roles until the end of steam.

If as I suspect this is a passenger train then the engine is most likely a 4-6-2. Those were K-something classes on the NYC with half a dozen sub classes. They were the main passenger engine for anything small enough or secondary enough to not be pulled by one of the 4-6-4 Hudsons.

NYC k-11 4-6-2.jpg


If it is a freight, then an H-something 2-8-2 would be likely. I think H-6 was the only type with the tapered boiler.

NYC 2-8-2 H6.jpg


One more side note, while there were lots of exceptions, typically freight engines would have 8 driving wheels while passenger engines would have 6 larger diameter drivers. This allowed faster speeds at the expense of some traction and pulling power. Basically the same physics at work that mean you start your car moving in 1st, but drive on the highway in a higher gear.
 
@amazinblue82
I'm sorry, I'm big into railroads & forget that not everyone is. Didn't realize you couldn't read the sign on the bridge.

The sign, the bridge & presumably the train are all New York Central.

You weren't quite right with the CN thought, but very close. Notice there are 2 parallel bridges there, each with a pair of tracks. In 1950 the south bridge would have been NYC & the north bridge was Grand Trunk Western. If you follow those tracks back to the SW, the north side of the bridge over I-96 still has a "GT" sign on it. GTW was one of the US subsidiaries of Canadian National which was mostly owned by the Canadian Govt. About 25 years ago, they spun it off as a private company, and since then they have absorbed the various US operations into just being CN. So the tracks in the background are CN.

Meanwhile, the NYC became half of the ill-fated Penn Central merger in 1968, which became a large part of the much more successful Conrail in 1976. In 1999, The other 2 large eastern RR, CSX & Norfolk Southern bought Conrail and each took half. Detroit is one of a couple of areas where their two sets of operations & the Conrail tracks were so intertwined that they couldn't come up with an equitable way to divide it up. So most of the former NYC trackage in and around Detroit is owned and operated by Conrail Shared Assets, which is jointly owned by the other two.

While the train is headed generally East here, the railroad would consider it a Northbound, as this line started in Toledo OH and ended up in Mackinaw City. These days it ends in the north Detroit suburb of Utica, although some other sections farther north are still in use by other small railroads.

As I said before, my gut says that is a passenger car behind the locomotive which is fine as at that point there were still 2 passenger trains a day from Detroit to Mackinaw. My only concern is the time of day seems off a little. I don't have a 1950 timetable handy, but looking at several others from the '40s-'60s the daytime northbound seems to have always been scheduled for a Detroit departure between 8-9 am. If this photo is that early on a December morning, I would expect the shadows to be more pronounced to the left of the cars on the highway. That said, given how clean the road surface looks, the photographer may have done quite a bit of touchup work on the picture.

As to the specific type of locomotive, we can narrow it down considerably, but I'm not sure an exact type can be determined.

The three clues I see are the high rounded dome behind the smokestack, the tapered section in the middle of the boiler, and the overall size of the engine.View attachment 632482

Comparing to a couple of reasonably known dimensions, I think the overall length of the loco & tender is around 70 feet. While there is lots & lots of information online about NYC steam power, actual lengths of different classes has proven to be surprisingly difficult to find. I suspect I can find what I need in some actual books I have, but they aren't handy tonight, so will have to come back to that.

Regardless, that length probably eliminates any switch engines (0-6-0 or 0-8-0 types) and also any of their larger newer engines. (4-8-4, 4-8-2 or 4-6-4 types).

The other clues also eliminate the larger engines. I'm not sure the engineering behind it, but early steam engines typically had that sort of boiler that narrowed in the front with the tapered section, but by the '30s-'40s boilers were usually nearly straight. Also, the NYC like most of the Eastern railroads had fairly tight clearances, so as the engines got bigger anything on top of the boiler tended to be pretty low profile to keep the overall height under control.

These are pics of NYC 4-8-4 & 4-6-4 engines. Note the much flatter top profile.

View attachment 632483

View attachment 632484

What I think is most likely is the sort of medium sized engine that were built before 1930, but still in use in secondary roles until the end of steam.

If as I suspect this is a passenger train then the engine is most likely a 4-6-2. Those were K-something classes on the NYC with half a dozen sub classes. They were the main passenger engine for anything small enough or secondary enough to not be pulled by one of the 4-6-4 Hudsons.

View attachment 632485

If it is a freight, then an H-something 2-8-2 would be likely. I think H-6 was the only type with the tapered boiler.

View attachment 632486

One more side note, while there were lots of exceptions, typically freight engines would have 8 driving wheels while passenger engines would have 6 larger diameter drivers. This allowed faster speeds at the expense of some traction and pulling power. Basically the same physics at work that mean you start your car moving in 1st, but drive on the highway in a higher gear.
wow @D Cluley !!. above & beyond the call, chief.

guess this particular "mystery" was irresistible in a way, and/or in your "wheelhouse". i appreciate you taking the time in any event.

so, seems like a very thorough, rational analysis. thank you for taking the time to plausibly untangle the "web" of considerations this 70 year-old, heavy metal locomotive ID gig needed.

Based on your excellent, detailed work, a NYC "H series freight" (tho it still could be "passenger" like you suspect) steam rig ticks the most boxes (RR's, era, location in the city, freight vs. passenger, etc.,) in my RR neophyte mind.

:thankyou:
 
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UP train, engine number 3524, engine type 2-8-8-0
1702568205330.png

RF&P train, engine number 604, engine type 4-8-4​

1702568303486.png

PRR train, engine number 6701, engine type 4-8-2
1702568364720.png

NC&SL train, engine number 583, engine type 4-8-4
1702568604697.png

CRI&P train, engine number 2696, engine type 2-8-2
1702568682675.png

1702568714166.png
 

Land Excavating Trenching, aka, White Rabbit No. 6, This machine was an underground tank developed in 1939-1940 and designed to travel across "no-man's-land" in a trench of its own making, cutting a trench 7 ft 6 in (2.29 m) wide and 5 ft (1.5 m) deep.​

1702618323214.png
 
It is the T-10 Mine Exploder, based on a highly modified Sherman.

The enormous wheels would roll over and hopefully detonate mines below, while being tough enough to withstand the blast. Their size allowed the tank to be kept high-up off the ground, keeping it away from the blast. Smaller rollers at the rear trialled behind and cleared the gap left by the front wheels.

This design was not accepted for service.

1702618721925.png

1702618778213.png
 
This design was not accepted for service.

View attachment 632590
View attachment 632591
Interesting rig.

Why did it fail? Alleged story at link.


source: T10 Mine Exploder

Excerpt:

"The T10 mine exploder went through trials at the Aberdeen Proving Grounds in mid-1944, and failed to impress. Top speed of the vehicle was 7 mph on road, and 2 mph during mine-clearing work.

This M4A2’s [standard Sherman tank] suspension bogies, tracks, sprockets and rear idlers were removed, and replaced with enormous steel mine rollers.

The front rollers were 2.5 meters in diameter and almost a meter wide. They were connected to the final drives and powered by the M4A2’s engine. Steering was achieved via speeding up or slowing down the front rollers, as it is on the standard tank.

The rollers’ size not only made them resistant to mines, it also lifted the hull of the Sherman far off the ground which reduced the effects of mine explosions underneath. In fact, the bottom of the T10 was 1.5 meters off the ground.

It was toughened up even further with its rear belly armor increasing to 25 mm, up from 12.5 mm on a standard Sherman.

Despite the T10’s wild appearance, it was a self-propelled machine that had a fully-functional turret and main armament.


All in it weighed a staggering 59 tons – over 20 tons more than a standard M4A2, or around the same weight a [German] Tiger I.

The rollers were soon found to accumulate so much mud between the discs that they would essentially become solid cylinders and loose their ability to detonate mines.

The T10’s weight, and tendency of the rollers to clog up with mud, meant its abilities in rough terrain were limited."

1702645641478.png
1702645788254.png




Other pre-cursor rigs at the link invented for de-mining service.
1702646311104.png


1702646346783.png
 
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Land Excavating Trenching, aka, White Rabbit No. 6, This machine was an underground tank developed in 1939-1940 and designed to travel across "no-man's-land" in a trench of its own making, cutting a trench 7 ft 6 in (2.29 m) wide and 5 ft (1.5 m) deep.​

View attachment 632589
Are you sure about those years? This looks like a WWI creation.
 
Are you sure about those years? This looks like a WWI creation.
@67newport can say where he found it, but my looking into it for potential follow-up led me to the British doing this machine for WW TWO as indicated in those years.

"No man's land, to your point, was a WW One term I thought, however this "Cultivator No, 6" seems to have been built for WW TWO, which unlike WW One, was much LESS "trench-fought" than was WW One.

So, by the 1940's, it might have been already obsolete for warfare at that time.

1702670188077.png


"The Cultivator No. 6 had two main parts; the head and the body. The head was responsible for actually digging the trench, while the body provided the machine’s movement.

The head was a large machine in and of itself, weighing around 30 tons and measuring 9.3 m (30 ft 6 in) long, 2.6 m (8 ft 7 in) high and 2.2 m (7 ft 3 in) wide. It connected to the body via a hinge, allowing it to pivot up and down to ascend or descend.

A large plough blade cut through the upper 2 ft 6 in of soil, while a rotating cutting cylinder removed the lower 2 ft in of soil.

The body of the machine was over 14 meters long and closely resembled a WWI era tank. This section weighed 100 tons.


Its 2 ft wide tracks ran around the entire outside of the vehicle, which had a top seed of 3.04 mph on the surface."
1702670562809.png

sources I found: File:Nellie-rear-three-quarters.jpg - Wikipedia, Cultivator No. 6: The Trench-Digger of Madness
 
Aircraft flown by the 8th TFW, received ground fire damage in the nose. Pilot made the decision to bring it back to base, but ordered his GIB to eject due to serious controllability problems. Once the WSO ejected, the aircraft regained controllability. The pilot made a gearup landing and aircraft lived to fly again.

IMG_8814.jpeg
 
Aircraft flown by the 8th TFW, received ground fire damage in the nose. Pilot made the decision to bring it back to base, but ordered his GIB to eject due to serious controllability problems. Once the WSO ejected, the aircraft regained controllability. The pilot made a gearup landing and aircraft lived to fly again.

View attachment 632702
hey chief .. you sent me to acronym school on this one ... :poke:. neat story.

Anyway, a heavy metal favorite in this thread.... McDonnell_Douglas_F-4_Phantom. Fast, and apparently durable too.

1702729939764.png
1702730063958.png
1702729800298.png
 
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