Help Identifying Carter Carb

[Isaiah Estrada]

So I’ve been having issues time and again with the Edelbrock. Not so much the carburetor itself, it’s a BRAND new unit - what could even be so bad about it? Rather, it’s not entirely compatible with the factory intake.

A number of folks helped me to realize that the throttle blades of the AVS II were binding up with the factory intake manifold. The remedy of course is to add a spacer. I since purchased one from Summit, now I’m just waiting for it to come in…

However, I was curious - as I had the original Carter tucked away in a box. When I first got the New Yorker, this carburetor (like the engine) was seized up. It had rat crap, and a whole lot of other gunk inside and all around it. Our good friend and absolute engine wizard / whisperer Matt rebuilt it for me! I purchased one of the generic Carter rebuild kits on eBay and it was mostly correct except for the accelerator pump. I could never really identify the carburetor (I know, rookie right?) - so I don’t even know where to look for the accelerator pump.

Anyways, knowing that the Edelbrock wasn’t working properly - I decided to throw on the old Carter just to see what she’d do! This time, I brought a vacuum gauge with me. Luckily, Matt just so happened to stop by and once he saw me messing with the car, he quickly took charge and BAM!!! She is running AMAZING.

For one, because the throttle blades were binding up on the Edelbrock, the air fuel mixture screws weren’t hardly doing anything. Timing was still off (I had no idea what was wrong.) Now; with this Carter - I ran a thick gasket that we had and it completely changed how this engine ran. It was night and day. Matt eventually retarded the timing way down to about 7°. He did it by ear and with the timing light - this was where the engine was most happy. Remember, I’ve got a stock cam and a stock engine - so this seems about right. Plus, I’m running 87 octane (on hardened valve seats.) Air fuel adjusted to highest vacuum on the vacuum gauge, and idling at about 600 rpm - not pulling any vacuum at all!



Here is the original Carter. I’m unsure exactly what this one is.

The rear tag reads 4640S - so is this the model? Would that make it an AVS or an AFB? Also is there other ways to identify this carb? I’d really like to get the right accelerator pump. I’m loving the way this car runs with the Carter. I may just upgrade the choke to an electronic choke conversion and run this and save the Edelbrock for another project!

Matt wants to come back when the car is driving around and we have everything like brakes, and other things that need vacuum hooked up. He even talked about pulling the dizzy and fine tuning even that. Super happy to be able to learn from some of the best all around, here on the forums and in person!

 

[CBODY67]

All you need is the OEM thick insulator carb base gasket. Which cfm Edelbrock did you get?

AVS has the spring-loaded plate over the secondaries. AFB has nothing like that. Look at the AVS illustrations and related AFB illustrations in the Edelbrock website. The OEM versions will be very similar, other than the electric chokes on the Edelbrocks.

The metal tag is great to have, but the carb number is stamped into the rh lower front corner of the carb base.

7 degrees BTDC is fine for the hot base timing at 600rpm. Should be an emissions label on one of the inner fender sections, noting base timing and idle speed, plus probably the air/fuel ratio at idle. IF there is any doubt, check the FSM tune-up specs. Unless you put low compression pistons in it, 87 pump octane fuel is not high enough for good performance AND spark advance settings. Might end up needing 91-93 pump octane super unleaded. Also check the stamp number on the distributor, then check the advance curve specs in the FSM, too.

Glad it is running,
CBODY67

 

[413]

4640 is from a 1969 440HP with AC, this is a great carb for this car.

If you use a thin carb base gasket you can get a stock choke thermostat and have the choke working like a charm just like the factory did.

you will be better off running 92-93 octane fuel instead of 87.

have you driven the car yet?

 

[Isaiah Estrada]

All you need is the OEM thick insulator carb base gasket. Which cfm Edelbrock did you get?

AVS has the spring-loaded plate over the secondaries. AFB has nothing like that. Look at the AVS illustrations and related AFB illustrations in the Edelbrock website. The OEM versions will be very similar, other than the electric chokes on the Edelbrocks.

The metal tag is great to have, but the carb number is stamped into the rh lower front corner of the carb base.

7 degrees BTDC is fine for the hot base timing at 600rpm. Should be an emissions label on one of the inner fender sections, noting base timing and idle speed, plus probably the air/fuel ratio at idle. IF there is any doubt, check the FSM tune-up specs. Unless you put low compression pistons in it, 87 pump octane fuel is not high enough for good performance AND spark advance settings. Might end up needing 91-93 pump octane super unleaded. Also check the stamp number on the distributor, then check the advance curve specs in the FSM, too.

Glad it is running,
CBODY67

Thanks for the tips! Would you happen to know a part number for the OEM type gasket? The Edelbrock AVS II carb I got is rated at 650 CFM.

I will inspect the carb base tomorrow and locate that carb number so I can get the right accelerator pump for this carb!

Unfortunately there are no stickers left on the car. We do have an old Mechanics Book from the '70s however, noting the spec that this 1968 440 should be timed at. Even includes where the dwell, idle, and other things should be. Quite the handy tool! I tried looking in the FSM, and I can't seem to find any type of tune up specs at all. Where would they be located? I might just be looking in the wrong places altogether. Under ignition timing it didn't even give me a base timing at all. That old book from the '70s noted 7 degrees at idle so we just based it off of that. As I mentioned, that engine seemed the most happy at that timing. Granted, once we have the car moving and driving under load, I'm sure the timing will need to be tweaked and fine tuned even more!

Super thankful for all of your great advice and troubleshooting guiding me in the right direction trying to tame this beast.

 

[Isaiah Estrada]

4640 is from a 1969 440HP with AC, this is a great carb for this car.

If you use a thin carb base gasket you can get a stock choke thermostat and have the choke working like a charm just like the factory did.

you will be better off running 92-93 octane fuel instead of 87.

have you driven the car yet?

That is great to know! The car is very happy with the Carter. Wonder how this 68 ended up with that carb. Perhaps it was a swap done at a dealer? I would like to make the choke function as it should, so I will investigate the proper gasket needed on this 68.

Haven't driven the car yet, it's not a high performance car. Just a cruiser / daily driver. Not looking to win any races here... Once the car is driving and on the road, our friend Matt wants to come back and refine the tuning even more. He even talked about pulling the distributor to fine tune the centrifugal advance and make sure the springs and whatnot play nice with my carb, tuning and so on and so forth. It's all over my head at the moment but I look forward to being able to understand and be able to perform tune ups like this myself in the future.

 

[CBODY67]

Thanks for the tips! Would you happen to know a part number for the OEM type gasket? The Edelbrock AVS II carb I got is rated at 650 CFM.

I will inspect the carb base tomorrow and locate that carb number so I can get the right accelerator pump for this carb!

Unfortunately there are no stickers left on the car. We do have an old Mechanics Book from the '70s however, noting the spec that this 1968 440 should be timed at. Even includes where the dwell, idle, and other things should be. Quite the handy tool! I tried looking in the FSM, and I can't seem to find any type of tune up specs at all. Where would they be located? I might just be looking in the wrong places altogether. Under ignition timing it didn't even give me a base timing at all. That old book from the '70s noted 7 degrees at idle so we just based it off of that. As I mentioned, that engine seemed the most happy at that timing. Granted, once we have the car moving and driving under load, I'm sure the timing will need to be tweaked and fine tuned even more!

Super thankful for all of your great advice and troubleshooting guiding me in the right direction trying to tame this beast.

This is what came on my '70 Monaco 383 4bbl car. There is a variation which is open, without the center divider piece. Either one would probably work. Note the metal inserts in the mounting holes. Get the black, hardened mounting studs as the silver ones are sort.

Tune-up specs are in the distributor section of the FSM, at the rear of that section. Plus the carb specs section for idle speeds and such. www.mymopar.com

 

[413]

1970 had those thick gaskets. They changed all the BB intakes and chokes in 1970. You don’t want that thick gasket. The 1969 and older used a thin gasket with 4 holes on the 2806178 intake, which you have.

Isaihas carb has 4 equal size larger holes because it’s a 440HP carb. A std 440 carb would have smaller primaries.
so watch for this when gasket shopping.

Mr Gasket #55C, and it has 55 stamped in the gasket. It has 4 equal 1 11/16” holes.

look at the last photo, it has smaller holes. Look at the material between the holes makes it easy to identify.

Holley 4150 4160 Carter Edelbrock 4 Barrel Mounting Flange Gasket 1/16" Thick | eBay

 

[57fury440]

I'm curious, if the engine is working great why do you need an accelerator pump?

 

[HWYCRZR]

Yes tune up info is scattered in the service manual. That is why those green emissions tags are great, because most of the tune up specs are on there. (you can buy reproductions for almost any model)

Basic timing advance info is in the "Engine" / Specifications (section 9). My Dodge manual starts out with the 318 then the 383 and 440 specs follow (pg9-50 in the Dodge Service manual)
'68 383 and 440 stock timing is 7-1/2 Before TDC. (clamp off vacuum advance for this measurement) this is your initial timing.
Other timing info, including vacuum and mechanical advance is in the "Electrical / ignition system" (section 8) and the curves vary a little bit between 2bbl and 4bbl along with 383 and 440.

The idle specs are in the Fuel System / Specification (section 14)
The original Carter 4bbl AVS-4429S idle speed setting was 650 RPM and the fast idle speed setting is 1300 (adjusted at the fast idle cam) I would imagine your '70 carb would / should be tuned to the same.

Hope this helps. Since you are stock, start with the "Printed Specs" as it will give you the baseline to always go back to, and will likely be your best tune on regular pump gas.

 

[Isaiah Estrada]

Bingo! Found it… I’d say we were pretty close. Funny, my dizzy is actually from a 69 440 as well. Unintentional for that to match with the 69 Carter AVS.

 

[Isaiah Estrada]

Since my car was sold new in CA, could I assume that it is the “Cleaner Air” package? I’m not sure how I’d even be able to tell really. It’s spent its entire life close to home, I bought her still sporting her Santa Barbara license plate frame.

 

[CBODY67]

Regarding carb base gaskets, what was under the WWC3 2bbl on our '66 383 2bbl was a thick base gasket, from new. So they were around well before 1970 and the stainless steel cup for the choke thermostat items. Personally, I have had poor durability with the Mr. Gasket soft carb base gaskets. As a result, I do not trust them for any length of time. Just my experiences. Plus they offer NO heat insulation for the carb, which is desirable.

Now, the base gaskets which almost all of the carb kits are the thin ones, as are the base gaskets the replacement carbs are shipped with. I used the one shipped with my new Holley 2210 and it kept getting loose about every two weeks, but when I replaced it with the OEM thick base gasket, that problem vanished. Again, just my experiences.

Respectfully,
CBODY67

 

[413]

a 66 383 2 bbl is a different animal.

I was talking specifically about the 27806178 intake 66-69 440’s. They used a choke with no cup underneath and thin base gaskets from the factory. This will have the choke working properly. How are you gonna do that with a 1/4” think base gasket? your not.

Isaiah, I use the Mr gasket #55 gasket on all my 67-69 440’s (4 cars) without any problems. I use ethanol free gasoline and 160 and 180 thermostats. Which does not fit the group mentality here.

 

[70bigblockdodge]

Stock engine timing will not yield the best performance/fuel mileage. They are settings that give driveability and satisfy emission requirements. Always remember the EPA or CARB always shoots for lowest common denominator, your gas mileage and performance is not thier concern. Also the timing is less because in 1968 Chrysler had just ruined what little good they had in the earlier closed chamber heads with the introduction of the 906 casting open chamber head. So in order to reduce the chance of mom melting a piston in the family wagon they just back off the recommended timing making everyone happy.