Holley Sniper II or 4BBL Carb Upgrade?

abtry13brvo

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I want to increase performance of my all original '67 Monaco. It's a Base model, not a 500 unfortunately, with the 383 block of bigs and a 2BBL carb. I'm going to upgrade and just trying decide if I want to go with a Holley Sniper II or 4BBL carb. Both options require a new intake. Any suggestions/recommendations? Also looking for recommendations on a few other upgrades coming up: Headers, disc brake conversion (fronts only more than likely), finding tail light lenses/assemblies, 16" wheel sizes (correct offset and width). Thanks in advance.
 
How familiar are you with tuning a carb? I just switched to a sniper 2 and you really need to tune this with the computer software to get it "just right", if you arent familiar at all with a/f ratios and lb/h its a LOT to learn.

Edit: i would use the disreibutor that works with the sniper and also control timing. The efi quickly snowballs into cleaning up your wiring and shielding wires from rfi
 
Last year I had a mechanical restoration professionally done on my '67 300, to include rebuilding the 440 and 727. Everything was original. In lieu of the carburetor and distributor, I went with the Holley Sniper EFI (the first version - Sniper II was not out yet) and their Hyperspark distributor, an Edelbrock Performer intake, and TTI headers and their full exhaust. The forged crank, rods, and 516 heads were reused/rebuilt, pistons are aluminum flat-tops, and the cam is mild. Overall the build is on the milder/streetable side, since my ragtop is for cruising not racing.

So glad I went with the Holley upgrades. Starting is reliable, whether the motor is hot or cold. Drivability and power are great. The computer will "learn" - but only so much. @Knebel is right: get the Hyperspark distributor, and you will need to download the free Sniper software and tune it yourself on a computer to get the most of out of it. You'll be glad you did. It only runs on Windows, so if you're an Apple guy like I am, you'll need to buy a Windows computer.

Just as a quick example of why you need to tune on a PC: you can set the cruise timing on the Sniper handheld that comes with the unit, but the cruise timing for me would only start to kick in around 2500 rpm. With my axle ratio (3.23) and rear tire size (255/70R15) I do a lot of cruising around town at around 2000 rpm (~45 mph). So my cruise timing never kicked in and fuel economy suffered. Now that's not the case, since I am tuning on the Windows laptop; I have lots of advance in the motor at 2000 rpm and it runs great.

I am still on this learning curve myself, but having started tuning the A/F ratio and the timing a few months ago, I can already tell it's better. The motor just wants to keep pulling, and the fuel economy is better (14 mpg vs 10 mpg with the learned computer "tune"). I have about 42 degrees of advance at cruise, 35 degrees at WOT, and if it pings I can reduce it easily. I have the A/F ratio at about 14.7:1 at cruise, and I am slowly experimenting with leaning it out to improve fuel economy.

I am making small adjustments now each time I tune it. If you keep a known good tune that you never delete, you can always go back to that file if you screw up (which you inevitably will). You can keep multiple tune files on your SD card, so if you don't like the new tune you can easily change it back to the old one right from the driver's seat in a matter of seconds. It's easy.

You can also data log: record files of what the motor is doing (rpm, timing, A/F ratio actual and target, coolant temp, and on and on) at cold idle, hot idle, cruise, WOT, etc., so you can study it later from the comfort of your living room and figure out what is working well (or not) and adjust accordingly. It's easy (did I repeat myself?).

Just make small changes and go easy on the motor so you don't blow it up. There are lots of YouTube videos that will guide you. I found Joe Simpson's videos very helpful.

A final thought: my son will inherit this car one day. He loves it but is not a mechanic and will have no interest in tuning a carb or setting timing. With the Sniper, all he will have to do is turn the key and drive it.

Hope this helps.
 
Everything @67_300_Convertible said above. Including my kid inheriting my 68 300 convertible some day. I have a fitech efi and MSD distributor, but really appreciate the reliability I have with the car these past 6 years. EFI is not for everyone, and I hope the carb guys respond to you as well, but I a super happy with my choice to go with an EFI system.
 
I have been watching the EFI situation since it started in the 1990s. It HAS gotten better with age! Prices have been reasonably stable as the products have improved, by observation. BUT there is much more involved than like just swapping an EFI unit to replace a carb! Things related to the electronics and higher-pressure fuel system.

In many respects, the TBI EFI system is just a more-evolved "fuel/air mixer". No more, no less. Which is why power increases can be incremental, plus fuel economy in the same boat.

Their observed strong suit is related to drivability issues. "Drives like a modern car" is commonly heard. Which is good. No more "Hold the throttle at a particular place" or similar, just touch the key to start and it works. Configuring the car for "future generations" who have no knowledge of what an automatic choke thermostat is can be a big plus too!

Within the past three years, Holley has also come up with 2bbl EFI units! Which can expand their product line to cover more cars than just 4bbl or 4bbl-converted engines! Yes, although they reference them to Rochester carb sizes, those carb sizes ALSO coincide with Carter BBD/Holley 2210-family/Stromberg WWC3 carb base plates . . . all of which include Chrysler Corp V-8s of many decades!

When "self-learning EFI" came out it was big deal. It has only gotten better past that, plus the ability to further fine-tune the system. In the area of "cruise" ignition advance, the 1970s systems would generally run up to 54* BTDC in light-throttle, high manifold vac, cruise conditions. Take the mechanical advance and add the max vac advance values and it gets there easily, for all engines, as a general rule.

Cruise fuel at cruise with the non-ethanol fuels was 14.7, but the chemistry of E10 fuels lowers that to about 14.2. So watch the spark plug ceramic color as a fuel curve tuning device, too.

Being able to alter fuel and ignition curves is totally fantastic, to me. With the ultimate end result also including a modern version of the old Chrysler Lean Burn System as an ultimate outcome.

To me, the current-best option is to do the complete system, fuel and ign, and then tweak as needed, past the initial self-learn situation.

For carb'd engines, Progression Ignition has such a distributor that can offer totally variable ignition timing via a smartphone. Electronically variable advance related to manifold vac levels, too! Considering their FL location, hope they don't get washed into the ocean!

Many times, the electronics in the earlier vehicles didn't have a "clean" signal, which can need some additions to get it "clean" enough for the EFI items to not be affected. Which can include a new tansistorized voltage regulator, too! Similar with RFI, but RFI can be shielded with something as simple as "aluminum foil", by observation. Just things to be worked-through, as needed.

In reality, just depends upon what one desires to "pay for" and the benefits (to them) thereof.

At the same time, venturi designs have been finessed over the years for better fuel atomization. As the new AVS2 4bbls offer.

As always, make plans and then watch for the various sales!

CBODY67
 
I love fuel injection and really would love to jump to it on my car, but the parts availability long term has me a bit skeptical. Holley will definitely have the most support over time, but some of the systems from the 90's and early 2000's are no longer supported. In 20 years if I have issues with a Sniper I'm concerned I'd have to buy an entirely new unit.

Parts for 4150/4500 based Holley carbs have been around for 50+ years and shouldn't have the same supply concerns.
 
Last year I had a mechanical restoration professionally done on my '67 300, to include rebuilding the 440 and 727. Everything was original. In lieu of the carburetor and distributor, I went with the Holley Sniper EFI (the first version - Sniper II was not out yet) and their Hyperspark distributor, an Edelbrock Performer intake, and TTI headers and their full exhaust. The forged crank, rods, and 516 heads were reused/rebuilt, pistons are aluminum flat-tops, and the cam is mild. Overall the build is on the milder/streetable side, since my ragtop is for cruising not racing.

So glad I went with the Holley upgrades. Starting is reliable, whether the motor is hot or cold. Drivability and power are great. The computer will "learn" - but only so much. @Knebel is right: get the Hyperspark distributor, and you will need to download the free Sniper software and tune it yourself on a computer to get the most of out of it. You'll be glad you did. It only runs on Windows, so if you're an Apple guy like I am, you'll need to buy a Windows computer.

Just as a quick example of why you need to tune on a PC: you can set the cruise timing on the Sniper handheld that comes with the unit, but the cruise timing for me would only start to kick in around 2500 rpm. With my axle ratio (3.23) and rear tire size (255/70R15) I do a lot of cruising around town at around 2000 rpm (~45 mph). So my cruise timing never kicked in and fuel economy suffered. Now that's not the case, since I am tuning on the Windows laptop; I have lots of advance in the motor at 2000 rpm and it runs great.

I am still on this learning curve myself, but having started tuning the A/F ratio and the timing a few months ago, I can already tell it's better. The motor just wants to keep pulling, and the fuel economy is better (14 mpg vs 10 mpg with the learned computer "tune"). I have about 42 degrees of advance at cruise, 35 degrees at WOT, and if it pings I can reduce it easily. I have the A/F ratio at about 14.7:1 at cruise, and I am slowly experimenting with leaning it out to improve fuel economy.

I am making small adjustments now each time I tune it. If you keep a known good tune that you never delete, you can always go back to that file if you screw up (which you inevitably will). You can keep multiple tune files on your SD card, so if you don't like the new tune you can easily change it back to the old one right from the driver's seat in a matter of seconds. It's easy.

You can also data log: record files of what the motor is doing (rpm, timing, A/F ratio actual and target, coolant temp, and on and on) at cold idle, hot idle, cruise, WOT, etc., so you can study it later from the comfort of your living room and figure out what is working well (or not) and adjust accordingly. It's easy (did I repeat myself?).

Just make small changes and go easy on the motor so you don't blow it up. There are lots of YouTube videos that will guide you. I found Joe Simpson's videos very helpful.

A final thought: my son will inherit this car one day. He loves it but is not a mechanic and will have no interest in tuning a carb or setting timing. With the Sniper, all he will have to do is turn the key and drive it.

Hope this helps.
Thanks!! You should be a paid advocate for Holley....HA. I got my start in mechanics as a highschooler back in the late '80s so I'm familiar with carbs, timing, etc but nowhere near being an expert. I've been in the IT world since the mid '90s so computers and such are 2nd nature to me. Still have to apply that knowledge in a practical manner to automotive now so of course I'll be on the learning curve as well. Thanks again for taking the time to share your knowledge and experience. I'm looking forward to getting this car pepped up a little more (fun cruiser, not racing).
 
How familiar are you with tuning a carb? I just switched to a sniper 2 and you really need to tune this with the computer software to get it "just right", if you arent familiar at all with a/f ratios and lb/h its a LOT to learn.

Edit: i would use the disreibutor that works with the sniper and also control timing. The efi quickly snowballs into cleaning up your wiring and shielding wires from rfi
I feel like I would be more successful using Windows OS vs tuning a carb. Could do either but I think for the long term the bolt-on fuel injection is the best choice. Thanks for the advice on the distro. I will probably go with the EFI as well. I need to rewire most of the car. I have multiple electrical items I'd like to get working: blinkers, original radio, blower motor, rear AC, etc...
 
Everything @67_300_Convertible said above. Including my kid inheriting my 68 300 convertible some day. I have a fitech efi and MSD distributor, but really appreciate the reliability I have with the car these past 6 years. EFI is not for everyone, and I hope the carb guys respond to you as well, but I a super happy with my choice to go with an EFI system.
Thank you for this added info. I was on the fence for a while as well. My son will be inheriting this car and he will be helping me with all this as well (he's 28, a Marine and has 2 boys of his own) since he is mechanically inclined. He does not work with computers much though so I'll have to teach him that as we go. We enjoy working on stuff together.
 
I have been watching the EFI situation since it started in the 1990s. It HAS gotten better with age! Prices have been reasonably stable as the products have improved, by observation. BUT there is much more involved than like just swapping an EFI unit to replace a carb! Things related to the electronics and higher-pressure fuel system.

In many respects, the TBI EFI system is just a more-evolved "fuel/air mixer". No more, no less. Which is why power increases can be incremental, plus fuel economy in the same boat.

Their observed strong suit is related to drivability issues. "Drives like a modern car" is commonly heard. Which is good. No more "Hold the throttle at a particular place" or similar, just touch the key to start and it works. Configuring the car for "future generations" who have no knowledge of what an automatic choke thermostat is can be a big plus too!

Within the past three years, Holley has also come up with 2bbl EFI units! Which can expand their product line to cover more cars than just 4bbl or 4bbl-converted engines! Yes, although they reference them to Rochester carb sizes, those carb sizes ALSO coincide with Carter BBD/Holley 2210-family/Stromberg WWC3 carb base plates . . . all of which include Chrysler Corp V-8s of many decades!

When "self-learning EFI" came out it was big deal. It has only gotten better past that, plus the ability to further fine-tune the system. In the area of "cruise" ignition advance, the 1970s systems would generally run up to 54* BTDC in light-throttle, high manifold vac, cruise conditions. Take the mechanical advance and add the max vac advance values and it gets there easily, for all engines, as a general rule.

Cruise fuel at cruise with the non-ethanol fuels was 14.7, but the chemistry of E10 fuels lowers that to about 14.2. So watch the spark plug ceramic color as a fuel curve tuning device, too.

Being able to alter fuel and ignition curves is totally fantastic, to me. With the ultimate end result also including a modern version of the old Chrysler Lean Burn System as an ultimate outcome.

To me, the current-best option is to do the complete system, fuel and ign, and then tweak as needed, past the initial self-learn situation.

For carb'd engines, Progression Ignition has such a distributor that can offer totally variable ignition timing via a smartphone. Electronically variable advance related to manifold vac levels, too! Considering their FL location, hope they don't get washed into the ocean!

Many times, the electronics in the earlier vehicles didn't have a "clean" signal, which can need some additions to get it "clean" enough for the EFI items to not be affected. Which can include a new tansistorized voltage regulator, too! Similar with RFI, but RFI can be shielded with something as simple as "aluminum foil", by observation. Just things to be worked-through, as needed.

In reality, just depends upon what one desires to "pay for" and the benefits (to them) thereof.

At the same time, venturi designs have been finessed over the years for better fuel atomization. As the new AVS2 4bbls offer.

As always, make plans and then watch for the various sales!

CBODY67
Wow, a lot of info. Thanks! I saw the 2bbl option for the Sniper as well but I thought I would go with the 4bbl intake for better performance (and it just looks cool!). I can't thank y'all enough for all the great info and taking the time to share.
 
You should be a paid advocate for Holley
I could use the cash.

I have tried tuning carbs in the past as well. I put a Holley 1850 on the SB 400 in my first car, a 1969 Pontiac Catalina, in place of the 2bbl Rochester. It was enjoyable changing jets and accelerator pumps, trying to apply knowledge learned from Pat Ganahl and the other Hot Rod magazine writers back in the 1980’s. But the ease of EFI tuning has much stronger appeal now that I’m older.

Recommend you go with the in-tank fuel pump option if you get the Sniper. My pump is mounted on the right frame rail by the axle. At first the noise was distracting, especially with the top down, though I am used to it now. If I had it to do again I would use the in-tank pump.

And fwiw I enjoy the tuning process. I’m comfortable around computers but not an IT guy.
 
The Sniper 2 also works with a 2 wire magnetic picup distributor and a cdi box. Its just not in the manual because the magnetic pickup introduces rfi. My car runs like that but I do see the interference in my logs.

You can tune the basics with the handheld or the app but to really benefir from the system you need to switch to the "2d table" and adjust the tables. The software is awesome as you can "overlay" your log file and it will show you the dot in the settings where the engine ran. Another great feature is that in the logs you can have it show you tps and map "rate of change". That is crucial for accelerator pump tuning but super easy.
 
I could use the cash.

I have tried tuning carbs in the past as well. I put a Holley 1850 on the SB 400 in my first car, a 1969 Pontiac Catalina, in place of the 2bbl Rochester. It was enjoyable changing jets and accelerator pumps, trying to apply knowledge learned from Pat Ganahl and the other Hot Rod magazine writers back in the 1980’s. But the ease of EFI tuning has much stronger appeal now that I’m older.

Recommend you go with the in-tank fuel pump option if you get the Sniper. My pump is mounted on the right frame rail by the axle. At first the noise was distracting, especially with the top down, though I am used to it now. If I had it to do again I would use the in-tank pump.

And fwiw I enjoy the tuning process. I’m comfortable around computers but not an IT guy.
I know what you mean about the cash....
The more I learn about everything I need to do for this project, the more I need to increase my budget for it. I'll be sure to post a few updates as I move along. I will probably try to get my shop built before I even start as it sounds like I'll have the car torn apart for about a week. I just built a house and don't have the shop built yet so the car is sitting outside. That's why I need tail lights now. First time in over 30 years that this car has seen hail.
 
The Sniper 2 also works with a 2 wire magnetic picup distributor and a cdi box. Its just not in the manual because the magnetic pickup introduces rfi. My car runs like that but I do see the interference in my logs.

You can tune the basics with the handheld or the app but to really benefir from the system you need to switch to the "2d table" and adjust the tables. The software is awesome as you can "overlay" your log file and it will show you the dot in the settings where the engine ran. Another great feature is that in the logs you can have it show you tps and map "rate of change". That is crucial for accelerator pump tuning but super easy.
I'm really looking forward to all the adjustments and fine tuning I can do. I'm going to do 0-60 and fuel economy comparisons as well.
 
If not looking original under the hood isn't a deal breaker, they make a self contained small tank with a high pressure pump in it to run the EFI with and the stock engine pump transfers fuel from the tank, into it. Saves a lot of plumbing challenges.

Kevin

DSC03932-scaled.jpg
 
If not looking original under the hood isn't a deal breaker, they make a self contained small tank with a high pressure pump in it to run the EFI with and the stock engine pump transfers fuel from the tank, into it. Saves a lot of plumbing challenges.

Kevin

View attachment 686076
Seems like Edelbrock has had something of this nature for a few years? Vertical mount, though. Key thing is to find real estate under the hood for this item. An easy way to not have to deal with the tank and fuel lines near the tank.

Thanks for posting!
CBODY67
 
If not looking original under the hood isn't a deal breaker, they make a self contained small tank with a high pressure pump in it to run the EFI with and the stock engine pump transfers fuel from the tank, into it. Saves a lot of plumbing challenges.

Kevin

View attachment 686076
Might be a good option. I really do not like to drop fuel tanks but I probably need to anyway. My fuel gauge isn't working correctly so I need to look at it.
 
How much do you want to spend?
I have a friend who runs a shop that does a lot of the Holley FI upgrades. They are relatively simple and deliver great results, but check out the cost for the WHOLE system. There is a lot of stuff you have to change.
You can also get a used stock 4 barrel intake and scrounge linkage pieces (not many) and get a good carb. That's pretty much it, same fuel lines, pump, etc. I'm unhappy with the Edelbrock stuff since out of the box it is really lean on our cars and tuning isn't easy. I got rid of one on my 70 Challenger, went with a Holley and the car is much happier.
Spend some money on a good free flowing dual exhaust, and headers or performance iron manifolds, your preference; single exhaust is a cork. Stock C bodies have some pretty lazy rear gears, great for fuel economy, but....
I did a 73 C body disc brake upgrade and am very happy and it was reasonably inexpensive, all you really need are the spindles and caliper mounts; everythig else is new aftermarket and similar cost to modern cars. My 65 300 with this stops great.
You pays yer money....
Martk
 
How much do you want to spend?
I have a friend who runs a shop that does a lot of the Holley FI upgrades. They are relatively simple and deliver great results, but check out the cost for the WHOLE system. There is a lot of stuff you have to change.
You can also get a used stock 4 barrel intake and scrounge linkage pieces (not many) and get a good carb. That's pretty much it, same fuel lines, pump, etc. I'm unhappy with the Edelbrock stuff since out of the box it is really lean on our cars and tuning isn't easy. I got rid of one on my 70 Challenger, went with a Holley and the car is much happier.
Spend some money on a good free flowing dual exhaust, and headers or performance iron manifolds, your preference; single exhaust is a cork. Stock C bodies have some pretty lazy rear gears, great for fuel economy, but....
I did a 73 C body disc brake upgrade and am very happy and it was reasonably inexpensive, all you really need are the spindles and caliper mounts; everythig else is new aftermarket and similar cost to modern cars. My 65 300 with this stops great.
You pays yer money....
Martk
I'm planning on spending around $20k total. Thanks for the suggestions and sharing your experiences.
 
Please keep us updated as you work through your upgrade, whichever route you go. Photos would be nice, too.

Some photos of mine if you want to see the Holley parts and TTI headers/exhaust and some other details:

 
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