Imperial-69 brake component's Budd vs. Kelsey-Hayes

[OldWarHorse300]

Maybe stupid question but, when changing from 4 piston Budd brakes to Kelsey-Hayes type one piston brakes, are the other parts still same? Budd System has tee part with brake warning switch ( looks like very similar with B body) and Kelsey-Hayes made metering valve, that's it no other parts. BTW, is this metering valve same as B and E body? Muscle car research LLC have repair kits for these, any experience about company/parts?
Thanks in advance,
Mika

 

[bigmoparjeff]

My memory says that Chrysler didn't do much to balance the brakes front to rear on C bodies until maybe part way through 1972. The smaller cars with disc brakes all had proportioning valves. I think most C's only had the warning light switch, which is your top photo, and possibly a "hold off valve", which they may have a different technical name for. I'll take a look at a couple of my manuals over the weekend and see if I can find an answer for you.

Jeff

 

[Ross Wooldridge]

Somebody just posted a bunch of these for sale. I'll try to find and link the post.

 

[Ross Wooldridge]

Here 't'is:

Thread 'DISC Brake Proportioning Valves. BUDD Disc Brakes. 66-69 C Body & Imperial.' For Sale - DISC Brake Proportioning Valves. BUDD Disc Brakes. 66-69 C Body & Imperial.

 

[Big_John]

While I'm not recommending you buy anything from him, here's the best explanation I've ever come across.

 

[bigmoparjeff]

Still investigating.

1969 parts catalog, printed in April, 1970 doesn't show a change over to single piston calipers part way through the year, so it's going to be tough to find an answer to your question. Looks like the cast iron "all-in-one" valve may have appeared as early as 1971 on Imperial.

Jeff

 

[OldWarHorse300]

Still investigating.

1969 parts catalog, printed in April, 1970 doesn't show a change over to single piston calipers part way through the year, so it's going to be tough to find an answer to your question. Looks like the cast iron "all-in-one" valve may have appeared as early as 1971 on Imperial.

Jeff

Thanks Jeff, and yes, -69 FSM didn't make a difference with these parts between Budd and K-H brakes. -69 they start with Budd but later that year they change to Kelsey-Hayes. So I'm gonna order repair kits...

 

[bigmoparjeff]

I finally found my 1969 service manual. After looking at it, I'm pretty sure there was no difference in the hydraulic system between the Budd and K-H calipers.

What they call a metering valve is really a hold-off valve. All it does is keep the rear brakes from engaging before the fronts, since it takes more pressure to get disc brakes to grab than drums. Chrysler didn't add an actual front-to-rear proportioning valve until they went to the cast iron, all-in-one combination valve.

The rubber guts for the metering valve are probably the same between all the Mopar body lines. One potential problem is that some of the reproduction rubber parts they sell now are not compatible with silicone brake fluid, if that happens to be your fluid of choice.

Jeff

 

[OldWarHorse300]

I finally found my 1969 service manual. After looking at it, I'm pretty sure there was no difference in the hydraulic system between the Budd and K-H calipers.

What they call a metering valve is really a hold-off valve. All it does is keep the rear brakes from engaging before the fronts, since it takes more pressure to get disc brakes to grab than drums. Chrysler didn't add an actual front-to-rear proportioning valve until they went to the cast iron, all-in-one combination valve.

The rubber guts for the metering valve are probably the same between all the Mopar body lines. One potential problem is that some of the reproduction rubber parts they sell now are not compatible with silicone brake fluid, if that happens to be your fluid of choice.

Jeff

Thanks again and good point that rubber parts question, I should ask that before ordering parts. But how about other rubber parts like front disk caliper and rear brake cylinders rubber parts, how can you know can you use silicone brake fluid?? One question leads to another...
Regards,
Mika

 

[bigmoparjeff]

I've never had any problems with older parts and silicone fluid. The issue seems to be only with newer rubber parts that are made in China. I read somewhere that Raybestos claims that all their brake parts are compatible with silicone fluid regardless of where they are made. The biggest problem seems to be with the reproduction brass brake parts, such as the warning switches, metering valves, and proportioning valves. The cheaper hydraulic brake light switches used on many old cars come with a warning not to use silicone fluid. The company that pretty much introduced silicone fluid to the masses, which used to be Stainless Steel Brakes, and is now Corvette Stainless Steel Brakes, won't warranty anything that's been used with silicone, even though they still have old videos on You Tube that recommend silicone.

To complicate things even further, some claim that the problem is the fluid itself because it was changed in 2014 to comply with new EPA regulations. I switched a 1941 Buick over to silicone about a year ago, with all new wheel cylinders, master cyl, and hoses, and it's been fine. I'm getting ready to put silicone in my '79 St. Regis, after replacing the seized, leaking wheel cylinders that were replaced about 10 years ago.


Jeff

 

[3175375]

I've never had any problems with older parts and silicone fluid. The issue seems to be only with newer rubber parts that are made in China. I read somewhere that Raybestos claims that all their brake parts are compatible with silicone fluid regardless of where they are made. The biggest problem seems to be with the reproduction brass brake parts, such as the warning switches, metering valves, and proportioning valves. The cheaper hydraulic brake light switches used on many old cars come with a warning not to use silicone fluid. The company that pretty much introduced silicone fluid to the masses, which used to be Stainless Steel Brakes, and is now Corvette Stainless Steel Brakes, won't warranty anything that's been used with silicone, even though they still have old videos on You Tube that recommend silicone.

To complicate things even further, some claim that the problem is the fluid itself because it was changed in 2014 to comply with new EPA regulations. I switched a 1941 Buick over to silicone about a year ago, with all new wheel cylinders, master cyl, and hoses, and it's been fine. I'm getting ready to put silicone in my '79 St. Regis, after replacing the seized, leaking wheel cylinders that were replaced about 10 years ago.


Jeff

Thanks for the info regarding silicone (DOT 5) brake fluid. I had no idea!

 

[bigmoparjeff]

I first discovered that there was a problem after reading a bunch of bad reviews for the reproduction brake valves made by Inline Tube for a Challenger that I was ordering parts for. I was able to find a nice used valve from California on ebay to use instead.

I've been working on a collection of vintage 20 vintage cars at my new job and the vast majority have leaking or seized wheel cylinders from moisture in the DOT 3 fluid. I changed the one Buick over to silicone, but got concerned about the issues with it and went back to regular fluid for the rest. I'm still using silicone in my cars, except for the newer ones with ABS. There's a military surplus guy near me who sells silicone fluid by the gallon, and I was planning to check with him to see if he has any that was made before 2014, which might mitigate the issue with the fluid itself, if that issue even exists in the first place. I still haven't found a clear explanation of what happened. If the EPA mandated change was in the rubber or the fluid, or both.

Jeff

 

[wyrmrider]

remember you can change your rear wheel cylinders to balance your brakes
or install a proporationing valve on the floor in front of your seat where you can reach it
handy if towing or snow (or road race)