Linage of muscle cars derives from Police fleet?

[Fury Pursuit]

I was wondering what other members of FCBO thought on this,....

Does the linage of muscle cars derive from the H/D Police/Fleet cars? In engineering, real world testing etc?

Many consider the 1955 C300 the first "muscle" car. Or the 1956 Plymouth Fury/Dodge D500 etc.

Police/Fleet examples would be the 1956-70's Dodge CHP cars, 61 Dodge Polara/Fleet 383 HP, Basically, any HP MoPar 1956-1971 when the "muscle car era" ended.

Did the "muscle car" evolve from the H/D Fleet vehicle program/philosophy, or in some for with it?

Thoughts???

 

[commando1]

I knew there was something special about cop cars when watching Broderick Crawford on Highway Patrol.
Note the FOUR portholes on the stripped down entry level Buick.
The original Buick Gran Sport.

 

[CBODY67]

The Buick Century (4 porthole) was the Roadmaster engine in the shorter wheelbase Special body. That model pre-dates the middle '50s by a few decades.

Larger engines were the order of the day back then. The Horsepower Race was alive and well! The C300 was a "racing" engine in a luxury car, basically. The original Furys were actually a little faster, I believe, than the C300s, but the Chryslers had the Gen I Hemi rather than a mere wedge-head engine.

Plymouths were known as reliable taxis, which helped with their police car reputation, even with the flathead 6. Then came the new V-8s in '55 and things changed! Then, in '58, the Fury got the then-new B-block 350 V-8.

By about '62, there were 413 Dodge Lancers (think Valiant) on the drag strips and things progressed from there. Big engine, smaller car. Chrysler Corp's edge was that they built "combination" vehicles. IF there was a larger engine option, the chassis and brakes were upgraded too, not just engine power, as a part of the deal. Certainly, their experience with fleet police/taxi vehicles helped, but was not particularly the motivation for "muscle cars" to happen.

CBODY67

 

[amazinblue82]

IF there was a larger engine option, the chassis and brakes were upgraded too, not just engine power, as a part of the deal. Certainly, their experience with fleet police/taxi vehicles helped, but was not particularly the motivation for "muscle cars" to happen.

CBODY67

I am more aligned with CBODY67's view.

My understanding (not a debate for me .. i am happy to learn things I didnt know ) of the genesis of high-performance, specially-designed police cars (speaking as a collector and one-time auto exec) was mostly derived from the civi cars -- i.e., how "civi" cars evolved to be marketed/appeal to "civi" customers (including "enthusiasts" groups .. hotrodders, moonshiners, racers, etc.) and feeback cars companies got from those civi customers.

So, plain old "consumerism" - faster, more bling, more colors/features, bigger, more HP, etc.-- the car companies used to compete for civilian business was at the root.

Police cars rode the same tide (while also getting better radios and such too) but fundamentally police cars still were just civi cars with decals, spotlights, gumballs, et. al., for the first few decades of the mass-production era.

This trend accelerated when car companies finally responded more vigorously to severe-duty needs that NO civi car could ever deliver to a fleet buyer .. a valued customer that bought 100's of cars at once (and a a million units as a group) was business automakers wanted and needed finally got their attention.

Somewhere (50's-60's, depending on manufacturer) special, purpose-built law enforcement cars (and taxis, etc), to specifications sometimes not shared by civi cars, started to arrive. I am sure there were "one-offs" in the 30's and 40's .. ie the cop cars got things civi cars didnt .. that we could cite.

ALL that to say .. my understanding is that WHILE "features" moved back and forth sometimes between fleet cars and civi cars (one of the other had 'it" first), it was more LIKELY a civi car got "it" (the "feature") first.

Summary: The "muscle car" geared toward civilians came first. Elements of them, as it related principally to the powertrains consumers coveted as automakers competed for their business, was wrapped in stronger, stiffer bodies and other heavy/severe duty/law enforcement (certified speedos, for example) capabilities specified (e.g., take curb at 40 mph and still be driveable) by fleet customer contracts.

 

[Davea Lux]

I was wondering what other members of FCBO thought on this,....

Does the linage of muscle cars derive from the H/D Police/Fleet cars? In engineering, real world testing etc?

Many consider the 1955 C300 the first "muscle" car. Or the 1956 Plymouth Fury/Dodge D500 etc.

Police/Fleet examples would be the 1956-70's Dodge CHP cars, 61 Dodge Polara/Fleet 383 HP, Basically, any HP MoPar 1956-1971 when the "muscle car era" ended.

Did the "muscle car" evolve from the H/D Fleet vehicle program/philosophy, or in some for with it?

Thoughts???

I will offer a slightly different take on this. I grew up in a very rural part of Oregon. During the 1930's, the whole area was rife with moonshiners. Most of the Police agencies in those days, according to my Dad and a lot of other old timers were running either Ford sedans with the flat head v-8 or Dodges with a straight six. The moonshiners usually had money so they spent it on faster cars than what the police had. The old timers all swore that the moonshiners nearly always got away if there was a chase by virtue of faster equipment and no one in rural Oregon ever suffered from a lack of available booze. I think this led to a realization by many police agencies that their equipment had to be up to the task when it came to chases. Prohibition ended with the election FDR and WW2 followed, so for about 20 years the horsepower issue went away. By the early 1950's, the horse power race had started with the introduction of the Olds Ketterling V-8 and the Hudson twin power six, these engines were legendary on the race circuit. Most of the other auto manufacturers developed high performance engines of their own, Plymouth and Dodges with the D500 option, Caddy's with a dual quad option etc. Engines were getting bigger and more powerful. Veteran police officers surely remembered the chases of the 1930's, so I think that they were more than willing to adopt specialty, high performance police vehicles when the manufacturers offered them. I think that the specialty police cruiser was the result of a demonstrated need to stay abreast of a vastly changing auto market with high performance vehicles on the road being driven by the public more than anything else. Chrysler Corporation's experience with fleet service vehicles no doubt helped them get it right with good engineering practices for real world conditions, but I do not think that was what drove the creation of specialty police vehicles, a demonstrated need drove that aspect.

Dave

 

[bluefury361]

The term "muscle car" is kind of a pet peeve for me. Check the factory ads from the mid 60s and you will see that the high horsepower cars were usually marketed as "supercars" by most manufacturers.
The term "musclecar" was coined by some magazine editor in the 80s.

 

[polara71]

So Police cars came from "Muscle" ? Not Muscle from Police ?

 

[Carmine]

Jack Smith, a Chrysler product planner and father of the Road Runner, used to order Belvedere coupes with police suspensions and drivetrains (383 hp) for his company cars. This was somewhat of an insider perk, but I imagine a smart dealer could get it done as well.

When the GTX didn't sell like it was supposed to (because of its higher trim cost and middle-aged image) he created (within Chrysler) the idea of a stripped down performance car (the GTO and GTX were more upmarket cars).

This was not the beginning of musclecardom, but a significant point on the timeline made possible by the existence (economies of scale) of HD/police components within the company.

Just like the "invention" of the automobile itself, this branch on the tree of history has multiple father's. Police packages being just one of them.

 

[amazinblue82]

So Police cars came from "Muscle" ? Not Muscle from Police ?

I know that for a fact for ONE "Big Three" automaker from their archives. IT was actually fascinating reading .. 25 years ago

But a mild current-day "counter" to my own point can be seen in the Impala SS .. it was a "cop car" first, then it was "civi-lized" as mass-market specialty "halo" performance car to get some more volume in the plant (and Chevy Marketing wanted it .. the data said it would sell and they were right).

I surmise that from how they behaved as competitors in the era (50's and 60's) when most of the "true" police cars we see today started showing up, the OTHER two "cartel" members did similar stuff.

For another current-day example, my understainding is the Merc Marauders were police inspired then "civi-lized". I also was told the '03 Marauder "air-box" (it flowed more air) was subseqently used in the '04 P71's and got the cop cars to 250HP .. so the civi Marauder had "that" feature first.

I think Sanow and Bellah do a good job on the Mopar story .. i just cant find my books to verify what Chrysler's full experience was on this topic.

 

[mrfury68]

When the LAPD went to the 68 Belvedere squad cars they were pretty much 4 door Roadrunners. Not all police cars came with big block power. They could be ordered with a Slant Six & 3 on the tree. I believe that was called "Patrol" while the big blocks were called "Pursuit".

 

[CBODY67]

In the Sannow book, it mentions that the reason for the use of Belvederes, rather than the full-size cars back then, was due to the width of some of the LA area freeways. Too narrow for the big cars, but the intermediate Belvederes did just fine.

Many feel the Ford Flathead V-8 was "the hot thing" back then, but the stated power was not that much more than a similar Chevy or Plymouth flathead 6! In some cases, it could come down to who could drive best. There were special intake manifolds (multi-carb) and "split exhaust manifolds" for them too.

The moonshiner cars had reinforced rear suspensions to carry their loads and not ride lower in the back. Truck tires were "race tires", as they were stiffer in construction than normal passenger car tires. Probably some sort of higher-perf brake linings, too.

When the horsepower race of the middle '50s began, many of the more powerful engines were termed either "Power Pak" or "Interceptor V-8" (Interceptor being the biggest dog in the hunt), as the Ford 352s were. If a law enforcement agency bought "the big engine", it was dubbed "Interceptor" officially or unofficially. In the case of the '58 Fords, the Cruise-O-Matic behind the "Interceptoer 352" was officially "Interceptor Cruise-O-Matic" (on the shift quadrant lens). In the earlier '60s, Ford did have a "law enforcement only" 390 engine. 330 horsepower. solid lifters, hotter cam, etc. Very similar to the earlier '60 352 360horse engine. All of this to compete with the Chrysler 383s and 413s. Chevy had their 348s and 409s, but they were in the minority, as I remember.

The CHP had wheelbase specs, which generally ended up being Mercuries, Buicks, Olds', and Chryslers/Dodges. The Dodge Custom 88s was born as allegedly the CHP wanted a Chrysler product in the 122" wheelbase spec, but didn't want to purchase "Chryslers". Read the police car testing articles in www.allpar.com.

If the OEMs didn't supply things like high output generators/alternators, there would be aftermarket companies that did. Installation of those things were a part of the bid specs. As the police car business was more "cherished", the OEMs started doing it themselves in "Police Special" models.

 

[CBODY67]

When I was out in Lubbock, the owner of the old Speed Equipment World was a Mopar guy, growing up in New Mexico. Naturally, as something of a mecca for Mopar enthusiasts, it was an interesting place to hang out some days. One day, the mention of TX having some "black cars" hidden around came up. 426 Hemi Belvederes, with full roll cages, for use in extreme chase events. One guy was from AZ and mentioned that they had something similar out there. Plymouth Furys with full roll cages and max top speed equipment installed. Lots of miles to cover in short periods of time, in cases of emergencies, he said. It made sense. Helicopters were not that prevalent back then, especially in law enforcement agencies. Some were around, but not many. Getting them in the air and "somewhere" might take longer than a fast car that was readily available.

CBODY67

 

[Davea Lux]

In the Sannow book, it mentions that the reason for the use of Belvederes, rather than the full-size cars back then, was due to the width of some of the LA area freeways. Too narrow for the big cars, but the intermediate Belvederes did just fine.

Many feel the Ford Flathead V-8 was "the hot thing" back then, but the stated power was not that much more than a similar Chevy or Plymouth flathead 6! In some cases, it could come down to who could drive best. There were special intake manifolds (multi-carb) and "split exhaust manifolds" for them too.

The moonshiner cars had reinforced rear suspensions to carry their loads and not ride lower in the back. Truck tires were "race tires", as they were stiffer in construction than normal passenger car tires. Probably some sort of higher-perf brake linings, too.

When the horsepower race of the middle '50s began, many of the more powerful engines were termed either "Power Pak" or "Interceptor V-8" (Interceptor being the biggest dog in the hunt), as the Ford 352s were. If a law enforcement agency bought "the big engine", it was dubbed "Interceptor" officially or unofficially. In the case of the '58 Fords, the Cruise-O-Matic behind the "Interceptoer 352" was officially "Interceptor Cruise-O-Matic" (on the shift quadrant lens). In the earlier '60s, Ford did have a "law enforcement only" 390 engine. 330 horsepower. solid lifters, hotter cam, etc. Very similar to the earlier '60 352 360horse engine. All of this to compete with the Chrysler 383s and 413s. Chevy had their 348s and 409s, but they were in the minority, as I remember.

The CHP had wheelbase specs, which generally ended up being Mercuries, Buicks, Olds', and Chryslers/Dodges. The Dodge Custom 88s was born as allegedly the CHP wanted a Chrysler product in the 122" wheelbase spec, but didn't want to purchase "Chryslers". Read the police car testing articles in www.allpar.com.

If the OEMs didn't supply things like high output generators/alternators, there would be aftermarket companies that did. Installation of those things were a part of the bid specs. As the police car business was more "cherished", the OEMs started doing it themselves in "Police Special" models.

Oregon bought the 65 Chevs with the 409 police package, only kept most of them for about a year, they could not keep the engines from blowing up. Oregon was a "low bid" state for police cruisers back then so they got a good variety. 1966 and 1967 were Fords, 1968-70 were Plymouth Fury 1, 1971 were Chev with the 454, another disaster as the engines blew up and the 10bolt GM rear end was constantly broken. Oregon sued GM, never did hear if they won. 1972 were Plymouth Fury 1's. 1973 saw Pontiacs with the 455, proved to have poor performance. 1974-78 saw a mix of Fury 1 and Fury 3 cruisers(technically grand fury's), all with the 440HP.

Dave

 

[Davea Lux]

When I was out in Lubbock, the owner of the old Speed Equipment World was a Mopar guy, growing up in New Mexico. Naturally, as something of a mecca for Mopar enthusiasts, it was an interesting place to hang out some days. One day, the mention of TX having some "black cars" hidden around came up. 426 Hemi Belvederes, with full roll cages, for use in extreme chase events. One guy was from AZ and mentioned that they had something similar out there. Plymouth Furys with full roll cages and max top speed equipment installed. Lots of miles to cover in short periods of time, in cases of emergencies, he said. It made sense. Helicopters were not that prevalent back then, especially in law enforcement agencies. Some were around, but not many. Getting them in the air and "somewhere" might take longer than a fast car that was readily available.

CBODY67

I can remember going thru the desert cruising at about 120mph and having one of those cars pass me like I was sitting still, he had to be doing something in the area of 150mph and never even gave me a look. Going someplace with lights and siren blaring in one hell of a hurry.

Dave

 

[70bigblockdodge]

Big engine, light car is not rocket science. Hot rodder's been doing it since first big engine and light car ended up next to a good tool box. When the manufacturer's noticed and created a package car with profitablity directed at a buyer group, the (insert your favorite term) was born. Yes a highway patrol car has these elements but was not sold as a packaged high performance car.

 

[cantflip]

 

[MoPar Maniac]

The 300 C engine was not built as a race engine. The use of the hemi head came abut due to efficiency. It made more hp with lower compression therefore it ran on regular fuel.
It came to be used as a race engine later for the same reasons.

 

[live4theking]

Interesting read

 

[patrick66]

Back in the early '70s, a buddy had a 1965 Chevy Biscayne four-door with a 409 in it with dual quads and an automatic. With few other options! Heater, AM radio, and full wheel covers. That was it, for looks and comfort. Marina Blue with blue vinyl interior. His dad ordered it to pull a boat with. It had a LOT of HD parts on it, like the biggest brakes you could order, basically a cop suspension and HD cooling. In high school, his dad bought a '76 Chevy pickup for pulling the boat, and gave my friend the Biscayne. It was quite the sleeper, I tell ya what!

And besides, the term "muscle car" was not even thought of until the mid-'60s.

 

[commando1]

I never liked the term "muscle car".
Always considered it abused by the industry.
HiPo used to mean something. Not anymore, tho.