Rustyrodknocker
Senior Member
Check out the muggyweld product for joining pot metal. They call it super alloy. Lots of great videos. Some incredible repairs.
Definitely don't throw out broken castings anymore.
Phantom C bodies
- Thread starter Rustyrodknocker
- Start date
Definitely don't throw out broken castings anymore.
@Xenon said: "If you ever see a Hemi or 6-pak with A/C most assuredly the A/C was added after customer delivery... This "argument" has been around for ages and with every " I know for a fact it happened" has been so totally debunked it it is silly for anyone to even try to make the claim..."
Agreed!
Please understand that I am not making the claim that the factory would have installed AC on my 66 Monaco if it had actually been delivered with the 426 Hemi engine. The original owner worked at the dealership and knew that it was going to have to be a self install or a dealership conversion, and in his case the compressor and stuff was delivered in the trunk along with the other parts or Chrysler only options that he'd ordered, and he was going to try to figure out himself how to install the compressor with the Hemi air cleaner.
He knew he was going to have to use an under dash unit, but it also proved to be an issue with the 4-speed stick and console, so it never happened... same thing happened with the installation of some of the other options that were delivered in the trunk (like the autopilot and Sentinel), or that he bought to install in the vehicle (what we would now call "day two modifications"). Many of the smaller parts I have are NOS because he hung on to them even after he sold the car.
He had big dreams for the car but he was a young man and all of a sudden there he was married and with the family, so the car had to go.
I know all this because I'm in touch with him. The story on how the car came to be is a very interesting one, and if you search it on this site you'll see it.
The bottom line is that my Canadian 1966 Monaco 440 4 speed car is essentially a phantom car that nearly got built!
Agreed!
Please understand that I am not making the claim that the factory would have installed AC on my 66 Monaco if it had actually been delivered with the 426 Hemi engine. The original owner worked at the dealership and knew that it was going to have to be a self install or a dealership conversion, and in his case the compressor and stuff was delivered in the trunk along with the other parts or Chrysler only options that he'd ordered, and he was going to try to figure out himself how to install the compressor with the Hemi air cleaner.
He knew he was going to have to use an under dash unit, but it also proved to be an issue with the 4-speed stick and console, so it never happened... same thing happened with the installation of some of the other options that were delivered in the trunk (like the autopilot and Sentinel), or that he bought to install in the vehicle (what we would now call "day two modifications"). Many of the smaller parts I have are NOS because he hung on to them even after he sold the car.
He had big dreams for the car but he was a young man and all of a sudden there he was married and with the family, so the car had to go.
I know all this because I'm in touch with him. The story on how the car came to be is a very interesting one, and if you search it on this site you'll see it.
The bottom line is that my Canadian 1966 Monaco 440 4 speed car is essentially a phantom car that nearly got built!
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commando1
Old Man with a Hat
Well said, sir.
Off subject a little, but I've read about using the Muggyweld in real life and they say it's very hard to use at best. The problem is the melting point of the pot metal will vary from piece to piece, and it's a fine line between welding temperature and a puddle of pot metal.
Not saying it doesn't work, just saying it might not work "as advertised". Lot's of practice involved at minimum is how it looks to me.
I’ve thought about a phantom c body I think would’ve been neat back in the day and I’ve landed on two of them. The first would be the fuselage imperial convertible. I know there’s a couple customs in the works but a factory built very would’ve been quite a car!! The second would be for the 65-66 Plymouth fury’s. To have a superstock option like the Belvedere had with the aluminum panels and the Hemi also being an option. I do think that all c bodies from 66-71 should’ve had an option for the hemi. especially for the fury’s and the 300s but then again if that had been the case, the c body market for those cars would be out of the every day guys reach. But it’s a cool dream!
You know... This really got my attention.
Doing a '66 300M would be kind of cool. Since driving a car with 3 pedals isn't really a great option for me anymore, I'd stay away from that... and personal experiences with the Hemi would push me towards a big block wedge instead (plus a lot less cost involved). But the concept is pretty sound.
I had read that a street wedge 426 was planned, with the Hemi as an option. But 1965 was the last year for the 426 wedge and 1966 being the first year for the 440, it makes sense that some warmed over version of the 440 would be logical.
So... A clean '66 300 and the proper cloisonné emblems, figure out the grille changes and a good, strong 440 could get you started...
I'd do the Hemi with an automatic in the 66 300 M - as a stable mate to my Monaco 440 4-speed.
So - to back up what you're saying John, and to give others a bit more background to my claims regarding this particular car and the chance it could have come with a Hemi (even though we know that NO C bodies had factory hemi engines), here's the story once again:
There was, according to the original owner of my Monaco (which was ordered with a 426 Hemi and 4 speed and the order was accepted and deposit paid in June of '65) a Chrysler trade fair was held in May of 1965, where it was announced that most definitely there was going to be a 66 300 M with the Hemi option, as the 426 Street Hemi with hydraulic valve train was scheduled for release to publicly available cars. However, the Hemi M project was scrapped after the bean counters deemed it unworthy due to challenges the test mules went through, proving it would be too difficult, costly and not a good return on the investment in tooling and engineering for an extremely niche market option. Think about that 65 Town and Country with 426 hemi, 4 speed, Disc Brakes (you can see the special master cylinder in the pics below, but it has the wrong booster on it - likely a replacement), AC and all the other options that was made as a dealership conversion somewhere in the states (I forget where) as one of the test mules for the 66 Hemi M.
There are far too many factory parts and well placed engineering on this car to have it be some backyard conversion. However, with the crazy amount of tweaking and re-engineering of parts just to fit the Hemi and give people the options list expected in a Chrysler (like AC and power brakes), AND the known issues with Hemi durability (even with the new for 66 hydraulic valve train), plus the need to add a decently attractive warranty to an engine option clearly designed for racing, the 440 was hands down the winner in this case and so it's a no brainer that the option was cancelled - but the option for a 426 Street Hemi was very much in consideration during 1965 planning - so much so that it was announced at a Chrysler trade fair where high volume dealerships sent representatives to this company gathering to see what was coming out for the next year. The person who went to this trade fair from the Calgary dealership where my car was ordered from was good friends with the original owner of my car (who also worked at the dealership), and spilled the beans to him in May of 65. This prompted my guy to immediately special order the Monaco with the options that would have been available in the 66 Hemi M, knowing that in many situations, especially for the high volume dealerships that sold high profile cars etc., Chrysler would build cars with options that weren't necessarily on the option sheet. Being located in Calgary Alberta (where the highest number of Hemi cars were sold in North America), the dealership in question was one of those where special order cars were worthy of consideration, and the dealership processed the order with the intent of having this car made as ordered. When Chrysler scrubbed the project, the dealership didn't want to lose the sale of what was a very expensively optioned car, so they substituted the 440 in place of the hemi for my guy (and didn't tell him), who was understandably pissed about it when the car came in... then he took it for a drive...
This dealership also sold all the pursuit cars to the RCMP for those years... so the engine that was substituted was not just a run of the mill 440, but was built for police duty on the special engine assembly line - factory balance and "built to design tolerance" which was the Mopar term for blueprinting.
Xenon
Senior Member
Ross, with all due respect,, I understand you are only repeating what someone else told you...
Sadly, tho, it is false..
ALL 426 Hemi engines were solid lifter until the 1970 model year when the hydraulic valve train
was introduced for the 1970 / '71...
Additionally there is no factory mount / isolator that was even close to making it possible to install a hemi
into a full size of that era..
.
Sadly, tho, it is false..
ALL 426 Hemi engines were solid lifter until the 1970 model year when the hydraulic valve train
was introduced for the 1970 / '71...
Additionally there is no factory mount / isolator that was even close to making it possible to install a hemi
into a full size of that era..
.
No problem!
I'm not claiming that my car ever could have been built with a Hemi, just providing the background as to how the car was originally ordered, and the fact that it's an interesting story!
I definitely have it wrong regarding the hydraulic valve train thing then - (I thought it was 66 they did that), and I completely agree with you in regards to the engineering difficulties that would have scrubbed any chance for a factory Hemi equipped C body - especially things like motor mounts. It just didn't make financial sense for Chrysler to deal with the engineering required to make things like a one-off motor mount just for that option.
The street Hemi is a lot of hype. Great engines, but you needed to keep up on them to keep them fast... and then a lot of guys couldn't get them to run right no matter what. I've only known a couple guys that could get the street hemi cars to run like they should.I'd do the Hemi with an automatic in the 66 300 M - as a stable mate to my Monaco 440 4-speed.
So - to back up what you're saying John, and to give others a bit more background to my claims regarding this particular car and the chance it could have come with a Hemi (even though we know that NO C bodies had factory hemi engines), here's the story once again:
There was, according to the original owner of my Monaco (which was ordered with a 426 Hemi and 4 speed and the order was accepted and deposit paid in June of '65) a Chrysler trade fair was held in May of 1965, where it was announced that most definitely there was going to be a 66 300 M with the Hemi option, as the 426 Street Hemi with hydraulic valve train was scheduled for release to publicly available cars. However, the Hemi M project was scrapped after the bean counters deemed it unworthy due to challenges the test mules went through, proving it would be too difficult, costly and not a good return on the investment in tooling and engineering for an extremely niche market option. Think about that 65 Town and Country with 426 hemi, 4 speed, Disc Brakes (you can see the special master cylinder in the pics below, but it has the wrong booster on it - likely a replacement), AC and all the other options that was made as a dealership conversion somewhere in the states (I forget where) as one of the test mules for the 66 Hemi M.
View attachment 525648
View attachment 525647
There are far too many factory parts and well placed engineering on this car to have it be some backyard conversion. However, with the crazy amount of tweaking and re-engineering of parts just to fit the Hemi and give people the options list expected in a Chrysler (like AC and power brakes), AND the known issues with Hemi durability (even with the new for 66 hydraulic valve train), plus the need to add a decently attractive warranty to an engine option clearly designed for racing, the 440 was hands down the winner in this case and so it's a no brainer that the option was cancelled - but the option for a 426 Street Hemi was very much in consideration during 1965 planning - so much so that it was announced at a Chrysler trade fair where high volume dealerships sent representatives to this company gathering to see what was coming out for the next year. The person who went to this trade fair from the Calgary dealership where my car was ordered from was good friends with the original owner of my car (who also worked at the dealership), and spilled the beans to him in May of 65. This prompted my guy to immediately special order the Monaco with the options that would have been available in the 66 Hemi M, knowing that in many situations, especially for the high volume dealerships that sold high profile cars etc., Chrysler would build cars with options that weren't necessarily on the option sheet. Being located in Calgary Alberta (where the highest number of Hemi cars were sold in North America), the dealership in question was one of those where special order cars were worthy of consideration, and the dealership processed the order with the intent of having this car made as ordered. When Chrysler scrubbed the project, the dealership didn't want to lose the sale of what was a very expensively optioned car, so they substituted the 440 in place of the hemi for my guy (and didn't tell him), who was understandably pissed about it when the car came in... then he took it for a drive...
This dealership also sold all the pursuit cars to the RCMP for those years... so the engine that was substituted was not just a run of the mill 440, but was built for police duty on the special engine assembly line - factory balance and "built to design tolerance" which was the Mopar term for blueprinting.
It's been my experience that a good running 440 will usually beat a street Hemi car. (been there, done that) Given the need to wrench on the Hemi more frequently, the logical choice is to build a 440 with a ton of torque for the heavy C-Body.
The guys that believe the Hemi hype have probably never driven one.
Agreed - another nail in the coffin of the proposed 66 300 Hemi M, especially if it was a solid lifter valves train engine as I've been advised - my understanding of the date of the introduction of the hydraulic valve train for Hemi engines was erroneous. No respectable Chrysler driver is going to want to be wrenching on his luxury boulevard brawler every weekend...
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This is the logic that swayed my guy into taking delivery of the car when he discovered to his dismay that it did not have the hemi he ordered - he was going to back out of it, but the dealership owner said that they tried but couldn't get the hemi (for the above reasons), but that they'd pulled strings to get the police-built 440 put in the car instead - my guy said the dealership owner said "This is the motor we put in the Polaras to catch a**holes like you that order hemis. Take this car for a drive and if you still don't want it, I have a line up of people who'll buy it." He took the car the car out, and in his words "I changed my underwear and took delivery of the car."
Enough said.
Now you guys have me thinking. I HAVE a clean 66 already that is about to get a full refresh. I'm sure I could find a nice period correct 440, warm it over, and design some cool M badges based on the original style 300 badges. It probably wouldn't be too expensive to have them CNC'd. Decisions, decisions...
The badges were already prototyped - someone had them displayed some time ago...
Really? Old prototypes or new ones?
I believe these were displayed as original 1966 300 M emblems for the car that never was. I wish I'd paid more attention, but it was a few years ago now.
fury fan
Senior Member
Emblems could be as simple or complex as your skill and wallet allows.
My 300L doorpanels were toast, so I recovered some 66 Nupe panels I had laying around.
The lower trim is merely some aluminum flat with a small puck emblem. (looking back, I wish I had buffed the aluminum to a chrome-like shine to match the other trim better)
The puck was a disc from Mcmaster, with a slot machined thru the back, beveled edges, and a pocket for the artwork.
Teh art was a graphic-arts version of the L emblem, printed on photopaper, carefully cut out and placed in the pocket. It was then covered with clear 2-part resin.
It has held up well for 14 years, although the resin likely won't survive for an outdoor/exterior emblem.
My 300L doorpanels were toast, so I recovered some 66 Nupe panels I had laying around.
The lower trim is merely some aluminum flat with a small puck emblem. (looking back, I wish I had buffed the aluminum to a chrome-like shine to match the other trim better)
The puck was a disc from Mcmaster, with a slot machined thru the back, beveled edges, and a pocket for the artwork.
Teh art was a graphic-arts version of the L emblem, printed on photopaper, carefully cut out and placed in the pocket. It was then covered with clear 2-part resin.
It has held up well for 14 years, although the resin likely won't survive for an outdoor/exterior emblem.
sixpkrt
Senior Member
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Have pics of your 300L been posted before. I don't remember seeing any, but sure would like to.
fury fan
Senior Member
I generally only post pics of particular things on my cars (like the doorpanels above), as overall the 3 of them aren't terribly photogenic overall.
The L was suffering from peeling of an ancient low-quality paintjob on the upper surfaces, so here's a pic of it after a weekend with the DA and some Rusto (the Moparts craze of a few years ago) to protect it better. I did all the surfaces from the fendertop trim upward. Got down to where I was kissing the original factory primer. Used 3" sanding discs on a cordless to carefully remove the flaky tape-edging and got slightly under the trim. Used a good brush to get paint under there afterward. Not pretty, but significantly better - I wasn't prepared to put a $5000 paintjob on a $5000 car.
It's a decent project car, very little rust - but needs lots of cosmetics. Although I've not done much resto to it in the 16 years I've had it, I've kept it safe and dry and I enjoy owning one of the few Letter cars I can afford.
The L was suffering from peeling of an ancient low-quality paintjob on the upper surfaces, so here's a pic of it after a weekend with the DA and some Rusto (the Moparts craze of a few years ago) to protect it better. I did all the surfaces from the fendertop trim upward. Got down to where I was kissing the original factory primer. Used 3" sanding discs on a cordless to carefully remove the flaky tape-edging and got slightly under the trim. Used a good brush to get paint under there afterward. Not pretty, but significantly better - I wasn't prepared to put a $5000 paintjob on a $5000 car.
It's a decent project car, very little rust - but needs lots of cosmetics. Although I've not done much resto to it in the 16 years I've had it, I've kept it safe and dry and I enjoy owning one of the few Letter cars I can afford.
Chances are good that the 300M emblems were cloisonné type enameled emblems. There's a pretty good chance I know where they were made, but there's no tooling or samples left there (I personally looked LOL)
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