RICHARD PETTY'S 1960 PLYMOUTH FURY STOCK CAR ON EBAY

[Ram Fury]

Lads --
This is supposed to be a photo of the actual No. 43 '60 Plymouth on a track. I make it to be a Belvedere with the smaller window and no door handles.
Joe

 

[Ram Fury]

And here is Daddy Lee's. More Belvie.
Joe

 

[MrMoparCHP]

Keep in mind there are two different cars posted previously, the one that is being sold as a "Documented" car and the one that is a "Tribute" car, it is clear that the two are different cars.

I do not feel you can see enough of the rear window on the "Documented" car to make a judgement, door handles? yes the original had the door handles removed, but the car was probably a mess and they replaced the doors or for some reason maybe convenience chose to leave the door handles on the restoration.

If I was interested and thinking about speeding $500,000 on this I'd probably need to verify that it is indeed the car (or one of, how many did they have?).

I'm sure they can back up their claim.


Alan

 

[Ram Fury]

Lads --
This may be another clue to the authenticity (or not) of the car:
The '60-'61 NASCAR Plymouths and Darts had their fuel filler tubes modified from behind the license plate to the left rear quarter not only to facilitate rapid refill but also to get just a bit more gas (perhaps a half gallon or more) than would be possible with the fuel going straight into the tank from over the rear bumper. This modification is very evident in the pic of Lee's car and is just discernible on Richard's. I can't definitely say that E-bay car has that mod, but it sure looks like it doesn't.
Interestingly, Classic Stock Cars by Dr. John Craft (published 1997) has a chapter in what he says is ol' No. 43 and which does look like the E-bay car. However it has the bumper level fuel tank filler and, most obviously, the "Sky-Hi" rear window. Dr. Craft makes no claim as to whether or not the car is a restoration or a recreation, but I cannot believe the car pictured in his book is the original race vehicle.
There are also very minor discrepancies as to paint and headlight fairings, but they are hardly worth discussing.
King Richard may very well have owned the car and perhaps even had it restored in his NASCAR livery, but I seriously doubt if he raced it.
This being said, I sure wouldn't mind having it parked next to my Twilight Blue Metallic/Arctic White SonoRamic Commando '60 Fury 2-dr H/T (which has build record and original invoice).
Joe

 

[ImpJay]

Lads --
I dunno, but the rear glass kinda looks like the "Sky-Hi" rear window that was standard on Fury 2-dr H/Ts, but optional on Belvederes. If it indeed is the big window, it is not the car The King raced back in '60. All the photos and movies show a car with the smaller back window.
Joe

Did Petty drive a Belvedere or a Savoy back in the finned race days?

 

[Rwc]

In 1960 Petty entered 40 races. He was out early for crashes in 3 of those. I would bet a 6 pack that he had more than one car in 1960, and they were all Plymouth, but availability and which model would perform best on the next string of upcoming tracks had an influence as to what was used.

 

[LocuMob]

In 1960 Petty entered 40 races. He was out early for crashes in 3 of those. I would bet a 6 pack that he had more than one car in 1960, and they were all Plymouth, but availability and which model would perform best on the next string of upcoming tracks had an influence as to what was used.

In 72 or 73 I thought he won a ton of races with one car, I can't remember where I read that, just thought they had a car, and rebuilt it after every race. Even in 70 they still had the car on a trailer behind the truck, going to the next race. Don't know when they went multiple cars at events.

 

[Rwc]

I know in 67 he won 10 in a row and I think Damn near half of them that year. I don't know how bad the crashes were he had in 60 either. I just don't think it was possible or likely it was with one car. Maybe same chassis and embodied as needed. Just a thought

In 72 or 73 I thought he won a ton of races with one car, I can't remember where I read that, just thought they had a car, and rebuilt it after every race. Even in 70 they still had the car on a trailer behind the truck, going to the next race. Don't know when they went multiple cars at events.

 

[LocuMob]

I know in 67 he won 10 in a row and I think Damn near half of them that year. I don't know how bad the crashes were he had in 60 either. I just don't think it was possible or likely it was with one car. Maybe same chassis and embodied as needed. Just a thought

I'll go to the downstairs library and see if I can find it...

 

[LocuMob]

I'll go to the downstairs library and see if I can find it...

Yeah, I found nothing about only one car, I don't know what I was remembering.

Did find these pictures in one book I looked at that had the '60 Plymouth in it, or a look alike?

Sorry for the glare.

 

[garyh]

I found a five year old eBay listing

On a Side note, how did you get a ebay listing from 2013 ?

 

[Ram Fury]

Lads --
There is a movie, Petty Blue, narrated by Kevin Costner, that is a biography of King Richard and it is pretty clear that in the early days the Petty's ran pretty well on a shoestring and nothing else. In fact, Richard and his wife, Lynda, talk about the 1961 Daytona 500 in which both pappy Lee and Richard completely wrecked their '61 Plymmers. She said that it was a financial disaster and some of their help quit because they thought things were over; Richard tells about how his dad, still in the hospital at the time, wanted him to go to the Plymouth dealer (not to the Chrysler Corporation) factoryand buy a new car. Things were much more primitive then as there was no factory sponsor (except on the Pontiac side) and the cars were indeed Stock Cars.
It's a good movie and you can find it on YouTube.
RWC --
I like the Fat Tire Belgium Ale brewed here in Colorado.
Joe

 

[PontiacJim]

Only 2 cars originally prepped for the 1961 race season by Petty Engineering. Richard Petty completely demolished the #43 car in an accident during the first 100-mile qualifying race used to determine the starting position for the 1961 February Daytona 500. His father was on the final lap of the second 100-mile qualifying lap when his car tangled with Johnny Beauchamp's Chevy and went up and over the guard rail - almost a repeat of Richard's crash ending up near the same where he landed. There was little left of #42 and his father Lee was sent to the hospital and nearly died. There were no Petty cars in the 1961 Daytona race due to the accidents. My book then says Lee told Maurice & Richard to build another car for the 1961 (Plymouth Belvedere) season were he entered 41 of 47 races with the car. So it appears that there may have been more than just the 2 Plymouths that were lost at Daytona. My book also says he used the one year old race car for the '62 season which began with the November 1961 race. He also entered the '61 car in a few other early races for the 1962 season while also racing the 1962 Plymouth Savoy two-door sedan and eventually going with the '62.

 

[PontiacJim]

A little more history - and controvery.

The Petty Enterprises entered the 1959 season with a new 1959 Oldsmobile. The car was heavy and Lee wanted something lighter. It is said that Plymouth supplied 4 1959 white Fury's, 2 hardtops and 2 convertibles to Petty Enterprises.

Lee Petty drove car number #42, a number picked from the first two numbers of the license plate on his personal car. Richard would also begin racing in 1959 first using the 1957 Oldsmobiles, one being a convertible and the other a hardtop. Richard selected the number #43 for his car because it was the number which followed his father's number choice. He later ran one of the 1959 Plymouth Fury convertibles and won his first race in July at the half-mile track at Columbia, SC.

The new 1960 Plymouth's were unibody and not the body-over-frame type. So the challenge became to stiffen up the body which was done by using the roll cage to tie the front subframe to the rear subframe. The Petty Plymouth Fury hardtops used the larger 413CI from the Chrysler New Yorker to be competitive with the other brands of race cars. The two cars were distinguished by Lee's car having white paint around the headlights and grille, but I see photos showing the #43 car with the white paint scheme as well.

Then I found this on Petty's 1960 car: Viewing a thread - Petty's '60 Fury

"The car in North Carolina with Richard's #43 on it is a 2-dr h/t with the "Sky-High" rear window standard on Furys, though it was an option on Belvederes. Curtis Redcap's "Insider's History of Plymouth" and "What Came First, the Plymouth or the Petty?" both give the 1960 models as Furys. However, in the "MOPARwiki" web site, #43 appears to be a "low-window" Belvedere.

Thus begins the dialogue on the race cars and the clone and the original for sale as found in the last post and ties into the opening post here.

Posted on 2013-12-23 @ 7:00 PM (#418080 - in reply to #207017)
Subject: Re: Petty's '60 Fury

The Petty car is up for sale (although, I am sure it has been before?)

There is talk in the start of this thread that its a clone, but it does have a letter from Petty saying its the car he won 3 races in (2nd car) and that the first car no longer exists, which may explain the big/little window debate?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Richard-Pettys-1960-Plymouth-Fury-Stock-Car...

The Ebay ad states: "Richard Petty's 1960 Plymouth Fury Stock Car

One of the Most Famous Race Cars of all Time.

In this race car, the King, Richard Petty, won his second, third and fourth races. The race car that he used to win his first race no longer exists.

The race car is totally restored. A model of this car was made and offered to the public.

This race car has been featured at Historic Auto Attractions museum for over 12 years. Photo of it here: www.historicautoattractions.com

 

[Ram Fury]

Jim --
I have my doubts that the 413, as such, got into any NASCAR Dart or Plymouth as that engine was not "homomolagated" by Chrysler to the AMA for those cars until the 1961 model year (and then only as "dealer installed" options). However, in a discussion I had with an old time member of the Ramchargers (he became one in "The High and Mighty" days), I was told that quite a few RB 383 with the 4.03" bore and 3.75" stroke (vs the the B 383's 4.25" and 3.375") blocks found themselves in those cars. Considering NASCAR, USAC, NHRA, and AHRA rules at the time that allowed overboring to blueprint engines, those '60s may well have ended up with 413s even though the distributor bosses had a "38" stamped on them.
Boy, this old brain is really befuddled as I completely forgot about that that discussion in "The Home of the Forward Look" about the car. According to one of the contributors who saw what looks like the car in 1996 it is likely a clone restored by a "Kim H in Gastonia NC." We fought this battle back then as well .
Thanx for your input.
I just wonder if the car ever sold and if it did, for what amount? Usually some old MOPAR stuff that goes for big bucks gets lots of publicity.
Joe

 

[PontiacJim]

Jim --
I have my doubts that the 413, as such, got into any NASCAR Dart or Plymouth as that engine was not "homomolagated" by Chrysler to the AMA for those cars until the 1961 model year (and then only as "dealer installed" options). However, in a discussion I had with an old time member of the Ramchargers (he became one in "The High and Mighty" days), I was told that quite a few RB 383 with the 4.03" bore and 3.75" stroke (vs the the B 383's 4.25" and 3.375") blocks found themselves in those cars. Considering NASCAR, USAC, NHRA, and AHRA rules at the time that allowed overboring to blueprint engines, those '60s may well have ended up with 413s even though the distributor bosses had a "38" stamped on them.
Boy, this old brain is really befuddled as I completely forgot about that that discussion in "The Home of the Forward Look" about the car. According to one of the contributors who saw what looks like the car in 1996 it is likely a clone restored by a "Kim H in Gastonia NC." We fought this battle back then as well .
Thanx for your input.
I just wonder if the car ever sold and if it did, for what amount? Usually some old MOPAR stuff that goes for big bucks gets lots of publicity.
Joe

Joe, I am certainly no expert on the car or subject. I have a big collection of car books and pulled out one on the Petty cars and threw in what was written in hopes it might shed some light on the subject. I read on line about the restored clone car as well. I would say that the true story on the car and its verification would have to come directly from Richard Petty himself.

I find it interesting to look back on history and piece things together, but if you were not there and don't have access to first person or primary source documents, then piecing history together can often become skewed and not so seemingly correct. Anybody today can claim to be an historian and post things on the web, but very few are ever accurate - and recreating the past is never accurate.
Jim

 

[Ram Fury]

Jim --
So true! I'm one of those guys who fancies himself as a historian just because it was my major. But it does me good to remember the line George Bernard Shaw gave General "Gentleman Johnny" Burgoyne in The Devil's Disciple when the general's aide, Major Swinton, said,
Swinton: What will history say, sir?
Burgoyne: History, sir, will tell lies, as usual.
Of course, since I'm an old fudd, telling lies comes with the territory.
Joe

 

[PontiacJim]

Jim --
So true! I'm one of those guys who fancies himself as a historian just because it was my major. But it does me good to remember the line George Bernard Shaw gave General "Gentleman Johnny" Burgoyne in The Devil's Disciple when the general's aide, Major Swinton, said,
Swinton: What will history say, sir?
Burgoyne: History, sir, will tell lies, as usual.
Of course, since I'm an old fudd, telling lies comes with the territory.
Joe

Yes, recreating history is essentially an interpretation of events, and then somewhat biased by the writer whether he/she has an agenda or not. Been researching the WWII Army Air Forces glider program since 2001 - for an eventual publication. I have traveled the country sourcing primary documents (and sourced documents from foreign archives) and when I read the books that have been published on the subject, can quickly see how "shallow," romanticized, and often incorrect they are - but who would know unless some one came along and went to the extremes to publish a book as accurate and as factual as could be had. It takes a lot of time, work, and money that most all will not invest. And even that book will always be open to new information yet not uncovered that could change the entire publication. LOL Ya just gotta love history, history revisionism, and historiography! LOL

 

[Ram Fury]

Jim --
It's a pleasure to meet someone who even knows the word historiography much less the CG-4A or Horsa.
Joe

 

[MoPar Maniac]

1972 is considered the start of what na$car calls "the modern era" of cars where they used stock sheet metal but purpose built frames.