The People Have Spoken...

what is considered rich? 50K/year, 50 million/ year?
it depends on your personal wealth. i would consider someone with 1 million rich, while a billionaire would consider 1 million poor.how do we draw a line between classes?
i have no problem with the rich. the way i see it is there are three ways they got it. earned it, inherited it or won the lottery/ or lawsuit.
the ones that earned it shouldn't be penalized for their hard work. the other two groups will probably burn through it before it becomes an issue.
a serious intervention on government spending would be the biggest help the working man could expect. there needs to be tax. there doesn't need to be outrageous expense. trump's inauguration was reported to cost $100 million just for that day. that doesn't count the month's of preparation or the after costs. ridiculous.
 
I have not followed this thread but I have a friend that lives in Paris France and last I heard he was paying at least 50% tax. But Everything is covered including day care for kids. There seems to be a line which is drawn with their tax payments and their expectations that I assume keeps the population quiet .
 
Last edited:
what is considered rich? 50K/year, 50 million/ year?
it depends on your personal wealth. i would consider someone with 1 million rich, while a billionaire would consider 1 million poor.how do we draw a line between classes?

It would be informative to see where the break in the tax rates occurred relative to income over time. I would wager that many of you will be amazed at the past tax rates during the years and the effects they had on the health of the economy. Go through each of the 31 slides (they go quickly) and perhaps focus on slides 12 and 18:

THE TRUTH ABOUT TAXES: Here's How High Today's Rates Really Are

and these charts show who was President and the associated tax rate on the wealthy ( I think you will be surprised at both Republican and Democratic presidents' associated rates):

Federal Tax Rates by Year | Income, Corporate, and Highest Tiers
 
Last edited:
Sure 30 percent would be enough from a milion dollars.
But ONLY if they really pay it. No deductions for whatever.
Now you can start discussing reality and loopholes.
You will wonder how they reduce their official income.

I wonder if Donald pays yearly taxes of 333,000$
I somehow doubt it.

You lose a great deal of deductions as the income goes up. On a smaller level Child care expense is one. The AMT (alternative minimum tax) tax hits. The reason Donald gets out of paying federal income taxes is losses and depreciation. Our tax system allows you to write off that furnace and roof on investment property or a business. Donald has more on paper expenses than income. We get to depreciate a property minus the cost of the land. An example would be if I bought a $300,000 apartment building. I would value the land at 30k & subtract that off of the 300k number. So I would deprecate 270k divided by 27.5 = $9818.18. So I would get almost a 10k deduction each year for the next 27.5 years. Throw in a few repairs, interest deductions, property tax, insurance, utilities etc and it won't be hard to find a loss. If he shows any profit it will be taxed federally. Eventually, he will start to show a profit and has to start or build something else. Some things like general expenses can be wrote off in one year, others go all the way out to 27.5 years. Some states give tax credits to encourage projects. The Clintons took a huge tax credit btw, to offset their tax bill.

Now the catch is when the depreciation runs out, you have to find more expenses. You also have to recapture everything that you deprecated. In other words if I depreciated that property down to 200k, but sold it for 400k, I would be showing a gain of 200k, not 100k based on the original price. It's a circle that Donald has to continually spend.
 
The current enlightened Pope talks a lot about this subject - it boils down to a spritual matter in the end and what really satisfies the soul. And his well wishes to Trump included a reminder to be sure to take care of the poor. This Pope is a wise man IMO.

I hope you see the irony of a man sitting in his own country surrounded by walls, sitting on billions in real estate, art, gold and artifacts who tells the rest of us how to distribute wealth.
spreading-islam.jpg

This Pope is doing a great job of making Catholics into Lutherans.
 
I hope you see the irony of a man sitting in his own country surrounded by walls, sitting on billions in real estate, art, gold and artifacts who tells the rest of us how to distribute wealth.
spreading-islam.jpg

This Pope is doing a great job of making Catholics into Lutherans.

You have said in the past that you are involved in political matters at perhaps the state and corporate/union level, prepare news articles and give talks to folks at rallies, and you believe you were instrumental in getting Michigan to go for Trump when all the votes were counted. Given your strengths, have you considered taking a position at Breitbart News and then maybe getting to know Steve Bannon? There might even be a position in the Trump Administration for someone as gifted as you.

The Pope's admonishment wasn't just his own suggestion, as he is just passing along what he was told by a higher authority. And he seems to get out a lot and travel around the world rather than just stay inside those walls. Plus I really doubt he values all that much the silver and gold and other artifacts based at least on what he says to his crowds. I believe his well wishes to Trump were sincere and well intended. And I am not a Catholic.
 
Last edited:
You have said in the past that you are involved in political matters at perhaps the state and corporate/union levelprepare news articles and give talks to folks at rallies, and you believe you were instrumental in getting Michigan to go for Trump when all the votes were counted. Given your strengths, have you considered taking a position at Breitbart News and then maybe getting to know Steve Bannon? There might even be a position in the Trump Administration for someone as gifted as you.

The Pope's admonishment wasn't just his own suggestion, as he is just passing along what he was told by a higher authority. And he seems to get out a lot and travel around the world rather than just stay inside those walls. Plus I really doubt he values all that much the silver and gold and other artifacts based at least on what he says to his crowds. I believe his well wishes to Trump were sincere and well intended. And I am not a Catholic.

I only wrote a few op-eds in the county he won by 43,348 votes. I doubt 48,000+ people read them. Lest you think I'm the talented one who created the photo, I did not. It was simply one of the first results that came up with the keywords "Vatican Walls". I'm sorry if hypocrisy hurts. And I was confirmed Catholic. I remember being very proud of John Paul II for his role in ending communism in Eastern Europe.

My how times have changed.
 
Last edited:
I only wrote a few op-eds in the county he won by 43,348 votes. I doubt 48,000+ people read them. Lest you think I'm the talented one who created the photo, I did not. It was simply one of the first results that came up with the keywords "Vatican Walls". I'm sorry if hypocrisy hurts. And I was confirmed Catholic. I remember being very proud of John Paul II for his role in ending communism in Eastern Europe.

My how times have changed.

I am not sure of the purpose of the site you referenced or its conclusions, but to me, this Pope seems more relevant and authentic than ones in the past and seems to have his priorities in the right places - and his comments that I have read from time to time seem to be very consistent with scripture.

When I was very young, I resented that my parents made me go to church, Presbyterian at the time, and felt that only weak people who needed a crutch to get through life would ever want to be a Christian. But then due to circumstances that happened in my life when I was 23 years old, I took a deep look in the Bible (I also looked at other religions first, but did not find any of them convincing). I ended up spending two solid years reading and questioning everything that was being said, thinking many times that I had found contradictions that would allow me to dismiss it altogether, but upon further study, I realized they were not contradictions but rather a lack of understanding on my part on how it all fit together. There would be nothing worse to me than being suckered into believing something that was phoney - that was my attitude. In the end, though, I concluded it couldn't have been written by a man or mankind itself. And I became convinced that it was real. My life has never been the same since, and I would never want to go back to my former empty self. I am not "religious" in the sense that I identify with any denomination now, but I am a believer. And I look for opportunities to help people who are down and out in life, and it has been rewarding beyond any measure - even a lot more than my C bodies! I sincerely wish you the best in your journey.
 
Last edited:
Extreme Vetting, But Not for Banks - Rolling Stone

I know, I know, it's a dying rag, blah, blah, blah.

Just read the article and do some more research.

John

I did exactly as you asked. I read it and came away with this impression... At least 50% of the article is essentially name calling. "This guy worked at a bank that got a bailout." So let's talk about the overheated real estate market that caused financial/foreclosure crisis, and convince me the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT didn't play a role. Here's something that I actually witnessed. Let this be a lesson for how people turn a small pile of money into a larger pile. Pardon me for rambling, but I eventually get to a point.

In 2004, I was dating a 28 y/o girl who knew how to sew. She redid some seats for a C-body I owned. To make it easier for her, about halfway through the project I bought her a used commercial sewing machine for around $800. We both worked out at a gym. The gym owner liked cars and came out to look at my '72 Polara Wagon. I mentioned that my GF re-did the seats. He asked if she could sew gym pads. Before long, she was kept very busy changing his gym(s) over from pukey 90s turquoise vinyl to more modern gray. Then she started doing other gyms. She found a niche that no other upholstery shop wanted to touch.

She outgrew her parent's basement. So I purchased a solid brick ranch home from the 1950s that needed some updates. She used the house to work in, with her sewing equipment and her one, new employee. She paid me a small rent, and I remodeled the home (kitchen, bath, etc.) in my spare time, after work and weekends. I bought the house for $120k and by the time I was done, it sold for $152k. That's not a "flip this house" rate of return, but remember my outside labor costs were almost zero, and most of the materials came from Craigslist.

When I went to the closing, all the paperwork showed a sale price of $162k. I told the title officer "there must be an error". He told me, "no, this is a Federal Government program that is designed to help first-time home buyers. They get an extra $10k in cash to use for their downpayment."

Here's a laugh, the "Ameridream" program still has a zombie website, last updated in 2009 that explains it! You can see the whole program got shitcanned on 10/1/08. They're asking you to "write your congressman and save the DPA!"

upload_2017-2-3_23-1-2.png


So now we have a home that appraised for $152k recording for $162k. Guess what that does for the next appraisal? And now the new owners have very little skin in the game and $10k to spend on flatscreens or some other bullshit that was surely in a landfill 5 years later.

So guess what happened to my little Ameridreamers? Within 2 years they walked away from a solid, remodeled brick ranch, but not before stealing everything inside it. How do I know? The house is in my neighborhood and I talked to the neighbors. Eventually the market had enough of this and all those inflated appraisals cratered, taking with them all the banks that bought into them. Granted, the banks were all too happy to let people mortgage these houses... That is their business after all. But who was pushing for it from the government side? You need look no further than that zombie website...

upload_2017-2-3_23-12-49.png


...an unholy cabal of industry and "special interest" groups.

So please, when I see Charlie Wrangle (D) or Richard Shelby (R) who were both huge supporters of this program (and their ilk) being called out by the media to resign in shame, I'll have more room to concern myself that DJT has chosen bankers as advisors. Just how do you find someone with the knowledge who wasn't involved with the 2008 crisis? Hire a 24-year old out of college?

Now for the second part of your challenge, research... Just what did DJT do today that has the media all worked up? You read mine since I read yours... And mine doesn't go off into the weeds about 9/11, immigration, refugees, etc. or make fun of his hair.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertb...ule-heres-what-you-need-to-know/#798a7c165fa3
Donald Trump Thumps Fiduciary Rule: Here's What You Need To Know
http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertb...ule-heres-what-you-need-to-know/#798a7c165fa3

At first blush, the fiduciary rule seems like a common-sense requirement. Those handling our investments should act in our best interests, shouldn't they? Indeed, some may be surprised to learn that their advisor doesn't have to act in their best interest. One would think that the fiduciary rule would be necessary to protect consumers who are not knowledgeable about investing. Upon closer scrutiny, however, the fiduciary rule loses much of its luster. To understand why we need to look at the two significant problems with investment advisors.

Problem #1: Bad Investment Products

The first problem is the tendency of some advisors to steer their clients into expensive, complicated investment vehicles. The vast majority of the time an advisor recommends a variable annuity or non-traded REIT, it's because of the fees they will earn from this product. Most investors have absolutely no need for these types of investments and pay dearly so that the advisor can line his pocket with hefty fees.


It would seem that the fiduciary rule would address this problem.
An advisor couldn't be viewed as acting in the best interests of her client if she lined her pocket with fees from selling expensive investments most investors don't need. Well, it turns out that even under the fiduciary rule, an advisor could do just that.

Problem #2: Fee-Only Advisors Are Really Expensive

Many fee-only advisors tout the fact that they are fiduciaries. They look at non-fiduciary advisors as the bottom feeders of Wall Street. They even complain about their high fees, while talking up the low fees they charge.

The problem is that the fees most fee-only advisors charge are astronomical. The industry standard is one percent. While that doesn't seem like much, over a lifetime of investing the seemingly small fee can rob you of hundreds of thousands of dollars.


 
(Had to break this in two. Apologize for all the colors and bolds, but the HTML on this board has some bugs and won't "de-format")

-------------------------

So here's my takeaway. We have a Rolling Stone author with very little understanding of how the mortgage crisis occurred because he has very little experience in real estate investment, appraisals, foreclosures, etc. That means he has a surface-level knowledge of essentially "names" in the industry. These names haven't vanished from the earth in the last 10 years, so now their being asked to the "inner circle". But there aren't that many people (any?) with that knowledge AND clean hands. Therefore, DJT is guilty by association. Forget that the previous President had a staff of advisors who are from the same circle.

Do you know who Steven Rattner is?

an American financier who served as lead adviser to the Presidential Task Force on the Auto Industry in 2009 for the Obama administration...

...In March 2000, Rattner and three Lazard partners including Joshua Steiner left the firm and founded the Quadrangle Group, which initially focused on investing a $1 billion media-focused private equity fund.[4] Early investors in Quadrangle included Sulzberger, Mort Zuckerman, and Merrill Lynch. Quadrangle grew to manage more than $6 billion across several business lines, including private equity, distressed securities, and hedge funds. The firm also hosted an annual gathering for media executives called Foursquare, where speakers included Rupert Murdoch and Mark Zuckerberg. In 2008, the firm's asset management division announced it had been selected to invest the personal assets of Rattner's close friend, the billionaire New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Bloomberg
...In 2005, Quadrangle made payments to private placement agent Hank Morris to help Quadrangle raise money for its second buyout fund.[13] Morris had come highly recommended to Rattner from U.S. Senator Charles Schumer.[14] Morris was also the chief political advisor to Alan Hevesi, the New York State Comptroller and manager of the New York State Common Retirement Fund (CRF),

...In 2009, Quadrangle and a dozen other investment firms, including the Carlyle Group, were investigated by the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission for their hiring of Morris. The SEC viewed the payments as "kickbacks" in order to receive investments from the CRF since Morris was also a consultant to Hevesi.[16] Quadrangle paid $7 million in April 2010 to settle the SEC investigation, and Rattner personally settled in November for $6.2 million without admitting or denying any wrongdoing.[17]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Rattner#cite_note-17
...The case drew significant media attention when Andrew Cuomo, the New York State Attorney General, demanded more severe penalties from Rattner than any of the other firms or individuals who had hired Morris as a placement agent.[18] Rattner was once a major fundraiser for Democratic Party candidates including Al Gore and Hillary Clinton, but Rattner had repeatedly passed on fundraising for Cuomo despite Cuomo's past attempts to cultivate Rattner's support.[19]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Rattner#cite_note-19
...Rattner is married to Maureen White, who served for five years as finance chair for the Democratic National Committee and is now a senior advisor on humanitarian issues in Afghanistan and Pakistan for the U.S. Department of State. The couple spent a night in the Lincoln Bedroom at the White House in 1995 upon the invitation of President Bill Clinton. They have four grown children, live in a Manhattan apartment, spend summers on Martha's Vineyard.[24] and own a horse farm in North Salem
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Salem,_New_York
But those Billionaires are better than Donald's billionaires, right?
 
I was wondering Carmine whether you really think that someone can reasonably follow your post? I tried and gave up. I guess Critter did too - or maybe he did? The financial industry is incredibly complex and few really understand how it works. Maybe you are one of them, but your examples don't compel me because it is hard to see how it all fits together to make a clear point(s).

All I know for sure is that I took a beating big time in 2008 like many others and many of the same people who were in charge of the banks then are still there rather than in jail. They knew very well that they were issuing risky loans and using our funds deposited in their banks, not their own profits to underwrite them, whether the govenment itself under Bush was complicit to some degree or not. You are right, anyone could get a loan, and I couldn't believe some losers I was aware of that got not only loans based only on "stated income" but they got equity lines as well that they used to make their mortgage payments until they ran out, and then the houses went into foreclosure.

I do trust Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders to understand all this crap much better than I can, and I don't trust any bankers who were involved in that period to be wispering in Donald's ear, much less have a cabinet position. Safeguards were put in place in Dodd Frank, Glass Steagal and other regulations that are now under review by the new administration. Since Dodd Frank alone is 849 pages of stuff that only a select few can even understand, I really don't mind if someone wants to re evaluate the whole mess - I just don't know who anyone could trust to do this?

I would like to better understand why I can't even listen to radio stations anymore without being interrupted several times an hour by companies trying to get people to refi their houses "using the same paperwork you used the last time you did this a couple years ago" to "get money out and lower your payments". And just as many commercials on how to erase your extreme credit card debt and improve your credit score.......ad nauseum. What the hell is really going on? And having a Consumer Finance Protection Bureau doesn't sound like a bad idea given consumers' stupid willingness to go along with all this insanity (and car dealers want to saddle their customers with loans and terms they really can't afford nor understand and they know it when they sign them up). I just get nervous when Donald talks about taking safeguards away from banks so his fellow businessmen can get loans when they want them, and that isn't the case right now apparently he claims, and that hurts business and his jobs creation plan (similarly, he wants to apparently decimate the EPA, who I guess he concludes is one of the big culprits in slowing down his building approvals). I guess Donald has gone bankrupt some 8 times in his life, so that also makes me pause. I just don't have a good feeling that all is well or that he will make it such. Like has been said many times now, I guess time will tell...................
 
Last edited:
I was wondering Carmine whether you really think that someone can reasonably follow your post? I tried and gave up. I guess Critter did too - or maybe he did?

Well, I guess that's what happens when you write a reply at midnight... I definitely got complicated so I'll try to boil it down.

1) I read the Rolling Stone article. It was basically "Trump is getting advised by this guy, and he worked for this company which was bailed out by taxpayers". The problem is, you cant throw a dead cat among finance people and not strike someone with a connection to the 2008 meltdown. In the last set of cut/pastes, I showed how anyone could have written a similar article about one of Obama's billionaire key advisors.

2) I could see (first hand) what was going to happen to the mortgage market when home sales were being recorded far higher than the true sale price. The effect on appraisals would be something like compound interest. To make it even worse, first time buyers were given $10,000 to either take out of their homes, or use towards a down payment. That was called the "Ameridream" program, and I'll be danged that when I Googled the term, their zombie website wasn't still out there bragging about the unholy alliance of interest groups and eager bankers that pushed this program.

3) I grow tired of being told who-earned-what unfairly. I hear that fairly often, but it doesn’t come from the mouths of those who have delayed their own gratification. Nor from those who have started a business by forgoing “fun” on the weekends for sewing upholstery, replacing a toilet, pouring cement, climbing on a roof or tearing out stinky carpet. It seems to come from those who feel entitled simply because they have less than the next guy.

4) I pointed out that the latest evidence that Trump is the anti-Christ is connected to his removing the fiduciary requirement for financial advisors. That’s a requirement that does very little for consumers beyond a false sense of security… Advisors are still free to charge high fees or offer low return products and receive reimbursement. (That was my link)
 
2) I could see (first hand) what was going to happen to the mortgage market when home sales were being recorded far higher than the true sale price. The effect on appraisals would be something like compound interest. To make it even worse, first time buyers were given $10,000 to either take out of their homes, or use towards a down payment. That was called the "Ameridream" program, and I'll be danged that when I Googled the term, their zombie website wasn't still out there bragging about the unholy alliance of interest groups and eager bankers that pushed this program.

The main problem for the mortgage market was not recording higher prices than the true sale price. It was giving people loans they could never pay for. It was not proved enough how much they really earn and how their income might develop in the future, the possibility to repay.

As nearly everyone who was able to get a loan to finance a house the prices went up as nearly everyone wanted to buy one. So the old story of demand and supply happened.

There was a method behind it.
There are loans that were taken into the own book of the banks. But all the loans given out on too tight financial situations were combined into a bundle and resold to Investors. The banks didn't wanted to keep the risks in their own books. The investmentbanks did very well in selling those to investors. When the loan bursted the original Bank didn't have a problem anymore. Just the current investor.
Knowing what questionable Assets they sold they made financial bets in the background that the portfolio will burst. That was money made easily, too when you know what junk you sell.

That is what Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, Merrill Lynch, Morgan Stanley, Credit Suisse, Deutsche Bank and others did.

They are in a major way responsible for what has happened.

3) I grow tired of being told who-earned-what unfairly. I hear that fairly often, but it doesn’t come from the mouths of those who have delayed their own gratification. It seems to come from those who feel entitled simply because they have less than the next guy.

Don't worry. Guys like Steve (saforwardlook) or me don't feel entitled because we have less than the next guy. We are both lucky guys, know what we have and have no bad feelings or are jealous.


4) I pointed out that the latest evidence that Trump is the anti-Christ is connected to his removing the fiduciary requirement for financial advisors. That’s a requirement that does very little for consumers beyond a false sense of security… Advisors are still free to charge high fees or offer low return products and receive reimbursement. (That was my link)

The fiduciary requirement for advisors doesn't solve all problems. But removing them opens the door again for very risky financial products as it happened before.
 
The main problem for the mortgage market was not recording higher prices than the true sale price. It was giving people loans they could never pay for. It was not proved enough how much they really earn and how their income might develop in the future, the possibility to repay.

As nearly everyone who was able to get a loan to finance a house the prices went up as nearly everyone wanted to buy one. So the old story of demand and supply happened.

There was a method behind it.
There are loans that were taken into the own book of the banks. But all the loans given out on too tight financial situations were combined into a bundle and resold to Investors. The banks didn't wanted to keep the risks in their own books. The investmentbanks did very well in selling those to investors. When the loan bursted the original Bank didn't have a problem anymore. Just the current investor.
Knowing what questionable Assets they sold they made financial bets in the background that the portfolio will burst. That was money made easily, too when you know what junk you sell.

That is what Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, Merrill Lynch, Morgan Stanley, Credit Suisse, Deutsche Bank and others did.

They are in a major way responsible for what has happened.



Don't worry. Guys like Steve (saforwardlook) or me don't feel entitled because we have less than the next guy. We are both lucky guys, know what we have and have no bad feelings or are jealous.




The fiduciary requirement for advisors doesn't solve all problems. But removing them opens the door again for very risky financial products as it happened before.

Said very well Carsten as we have discussed some in the past. Being in the banking business, you are a great "go to" source for what really happened. Being able to succinctly summarize a situation is the hallmark of someone who really knows IMO.
 
Which was brought on by politicians who had no business regulating any industry. Other than hurting the poor people and helping their friends in the money selling business look what happened.
This is why we don't need more big government plliticians


Said very well Carsten as we have discussed some in the past. Being in the banking business, you are a great "go to" source for what really happened. Being able to succinctly summarize a situation is the hallmark of someone who really knows IMO.[/QUOTE
 
Re the general welfare clause....
It states the function of fedgov is to PROMOTE not PROVIDE the general welfare.
If providing health insurance (not health care) is a function of government then why doesn't it provide us with everything? Housing, food, clothing, everything.
And under bumcare fedgov can and will say we arent paying for that you will die. Try taking them to court.
What fedgov can give they can also take away.
 
Back
Top