The wanderer

67 ragtop

Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2019
Messages
77
Reaction score
20
Location
central TX
I think it may be normal but my 67 Sport Fury needs constant feedback when driving AT 65MPH. I can let go of the steering wheel and it will track straight and true for over a mile, but once I once I put my hands back on the steering wheel and make a correction I have to counter steer it the other way . It is not really bad. It is like it doesn't self center. I remember Chryslers having a super sensitive 1 finger steer. It is getting better or I am getting more used to it the more I drive her. I drive motly 65 and 75 mph 2 lane roads in central Texas. She gives me no issues in town. I am more concerned that a DPs officer will think I am weaving and under the influence.
 
That sounds like the way most cars with non radial tires felt in the 60s and earlier. What type of tires do you have on it now? What condition is the front end in?
 
You might increase the caster to the max possible and still have camber in spec. Seems like the power steering caster spec is +.75 degrees?

What you mention, just like the steering wheel being exactly centered when driving straight, is something that once you notice, you start keying on that and it only gets worse from there.

One other observation is that with time and use, the input side of the steering gear bushing can wear, which can result in what appears to be "gear wear". Meaning you can turn the wheel and nothing happens until the gear actually gets input to move. When THIS happens, as you gently turn the steering wheel, the input shaft actually moves in and out in the gear. There is a spec for this "input side" wear, but to adjust it might require the steering gear to be removed from the chassis and a special spanner wrench-tupe tool. I believe that is covered in the FSM. Adjusting the gear "topside", which is the most visible adjustment point, does nothing for this issue.

You might also look at the condition of the steering coupler joint at the base of the steering column. It can wear, too.

One thing to consider is "guiding" the car rather than "steering" the car on the highway at speed?

Just some thoughts and observations,
CBODY67
 
That sounds like the way most cars with non radial tires felt in the 60s and earlier. What type of tires do you have on it now? What condition is the front end in?
I have Cooper P225/70R14. I replaced the Ball joints , front and rear Shocks, Idler arm, tie rods ends, and front wheel bearings. I then had it aligned. He used my manual to get the specs for the alignment, but I may have to have that redone due to Radial tires.
 
This symptom can be caused by "any" amount of negative tow out on an otherwise good setup.
Is there "any" resistance to steering the car then the steering wheel is "dead straight ahead" while the car is idling on jack stands under the lower control arms? Any at all?
 
No need the change factory alignment settings for radial tires, from my experiences.

Caster can be maximized, toward the top end of the spec, to about 1 degree positive. Camber can be minimized, to marginally decrease sidewall flex, and toe-in should be near the minimum spec, in general. But these things can be for any construction of tire.

If the tread blocks are wearing "flat", leave things as they are.

CBODY67
 
You might try a Borgeson box also.I got one with a 10% off code from Summit Borgeson Universal 800127 Borgeson Mopar Power Steering Conversion Boxes | Summit Racing

Capture.JPG
 
I have Cooper P225/70R14. I replaced the Ball joints , front and rear Shocks, Idler arm, tie rods ends, and front wheel bearings. I then had it aligned. He used my manual to get the specs for the alignment, but I may have to have that redone due to Radial tires.
One thing that's often neglected, because it involves more disassembly, is the lower control arm bushings. That's one of a lot of possible reasons for your problem.
 
One thing that's often neglected, because it involves more disassembly, is the lower control arm bushings. That's one of a lot of possible reasons for your problem.
I just saw this on a You tube video from Uncle Tony's garage.
As I was looking closer at the steering system I saw that the pressure side hose is crushed where it makes the bend coming out of the pump. I don't think this will cause my issue but it does need addressing. Some one in the past bent the hard line without using a tubing bender.
 
As I was looking closer at the steering system I saw that the pressure side hose is crushed where it makes the bend coming out of the pump. I don't think this will cause my issue but it does need addressing.
Something like this, while it might not be your problem, isn't good on any level. That's the very first thing I would fix... and if it cures the issue, that's fantastic. If it doesn't, that hose needed to be fixed anyway.

I always look at the simple stuff first...
 
No need the change factory alignment settings for radial tires, from my experiences.

Caster can be maximized, toward the top end of the spec, to about 1 degree positive. Camber can be minimized, to marginally decrease sidewall flex, and toe-in should be near the minimum spec, in general. But these things can be for any construction of tire.

If the tread blocks are wearing "flat", leave things as they are.

CBODY67
My understanding is you dial in as much + caster as it will give you first and then hope to have some left when you set camber and toe. It's not unheard of for caster to go negative after setting camber to spec.

I think to keep these boats centered up requires a lot more caster than spec'd, upwards of 5 degrees if you can get it to go there. The power steering tends to be over assisted so you need some resistance to unintended inputs from the steering wheel which I think is where most of the "wander" comes from on these cars.

Moog makes problem solver upper control arm bushings that are offset to get more camber but if they are installed 90 degrees from the instructions, they will increase available caster.

When radials first started on North American cars in the 70s, I believe they reduced the toe to 1/16 in from whatever was spec'd for bias, usually 1/8.

Kevin
 
Radials do like minimum toe-in. The whole situation of toe-in is that as the wheels roll against the pavement, a force is piut on the steering system so toe-out the front wheels. So the static pre-load is there to compensate for that. Such that "rolling toe" (which some alignment machines used to have) is pretty much zero.

The other thing, in the earlier 1980s when all of the OEMs went to a M+S tire, was that the tread segments also fles when they touch the pavement. If the tires were not rotated every 6K miles, they'd get a flaky wear patterns which the prior "rib tread" tires did not. We're past all of that stuff now.

Those offset upper control arm bushings were around long before radial tires came to the USA. Their intent is to compensate for "sag" of the front crossmember. Seems that Chevrolets since 1854 have been known for that, especially earlier-'70s Chevelles with 454s in them. But their offset can be used for other reasons, too.

When the cars were designed, they had TWO caster settings. One was for manual steering, which was about 1 degree negative, for easier steering. The other one was for power steering, which was 3/4 degree positive, for better highway stability as the power assist took care of any extra effort to turn the wheel.

Many hi-caster front ends can have issues. Simmy, for example, which requires the addition of a steering stabilizer item on the tie rods. As some foreign brands and some GM cars had in the earlier 1970s. Not sure at what settings those are needed.

ONE thing about Chrysler front end geometry is that their camber angles when the wheels turn result in negative camber on the outside front wheel and posotive camber on the inside front wheel. What this does, as the car leans, is keep the wheels more perpendicular to the road surface, especially the outside wheel. Even bracing the outside tire a bit with still-negative camber. Adding caster to a normal front end does this too.

When I had the caster maxed (about 2 degrees +) on my '77 Camaro, with the TransAm WS-6 sway bars, the car did not lean, so I started to get more "edge wear" on the outside of the tread of the front tires. Many people perceive that they can't drive down the road without 8 degrees of caster, but then there were some people who perceived they needed a SBC 4-bolt main block just to drive to the corner store for some milk. On Gen II Camaros, it takes a special set of upper control arms to allow for 8 degrees of caster and still have camber in spec.

To me, the best set-up for a C-body front is first to have a set of good, HD shocks on the car. Then start with the alignment specs at factory settings, with the toe-in minimized for radial tires. That is pretty good, to me. IF the alignment machinedoes not have any specs for the vintage Chryslers, then +1 degree caster, Zero camber, minimum toe-in. At factory ride height, with the rocker panel parallel to the road surface.

Take care,
CBODY67
 
The factory adjustment bolts are limited to about +/- 1.05 degrees. You can get aftermarket kits that give +/- 2 1/4 degrees of adjustment. Increasing caster with radial tires will improve the return to center and stability. I have found that doubling the factory spec is usually enough but sometimes a little bit more may be required. Radial tires have a completely different roll characteristic than bias tires resulting in a loose feeling. As proof just try rolling one of these cars by hand with bias tires and then push one with radials. The bias requires way more manpower to move. I know this from experience as my career goes back to before there were radials being used in North America and everybody in the shop had to drop everything and help push a dead car into the bay with a lot of sweat and much groaning.
 
Back
Top