The weather

[amazinblue82]

I was sitting in my '78 Doba downtown Edmonton July 31 1987 when they announced that a tornado had hit the southside of town. I said bulchit we dont get tornadoes this far north... I was wrong. F4 destroyed a mobile home park in the southeast skipped over town then destroyed a mobile home park on the northside. Dont know what it had against mobile homes but it sure hated them. Now we get them regularly.

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There is "something" about trailer parks and tornadoes that was more myth than science.

BUT YES, it sure seemed like any tornado made a mess out of a local mobile home park -- and nothing else got touched. Even after we got to MI from KS this "fact" remained true. my first physics class in about the 10th grade made it clear to me what was going on:

the fact you really cannot anchor a mobile home to the ground like a fixed building, and fact they tend to be made from in-expensive, lightweight materials, they have awnings/canopies that also catch wind, for zoning factors they tend to be in open, rural spaces where straight-line winds are a bigger factor, etc.,

Its easier, relatively speaking, to create lift under/around a mobile home in strong winds and they often get tossed around by F0's (50-70 mph) let alone the F1-F5 storms that literally obliterate them.

Anyway, I am also the "first one" off the golf course too at the first HINT of a storm. I get the normal razzing, from men and women golfmates alike...mostly good natured but still a bit ticked when I break up the foursome and head for clubhouse.

And honestly I am always STUNNED by people (all over this country) who stay out on golf courses in bad weather, or at picnics, or whatever, and when it really starts to rain hard, they head for shelter under a tree.

YIKES!! tempting fate with that behavior...

 

[Fury440]

That storm map is interesting, wonder why West Virginia appears storm free?

 

[amazinblue82]

That storm map is interesting, wonder why West Virginia appears storm free?

Applalachians. Same principal for western US.

The elevation tends to mean the air is cooler/dryer, which means thunderstorms don't tend to get as strong without the heat/humidity as "fuel", which lastly means less likelihood for tornado-producing cells.

 

[Fury440]

Well, good weather and lots of Shine makes it a good place to live.

 

[patrick66]

Dry air is not conducive to tornado activity. Most places West of the Rockies are pretty good for lack of tornadoes. BUT, tornadoes can happen anywhere, at any elevation; and all 50 US states have experienced them. They are common in the Prairie Provinces of Canada, as well.

Elevation really has no effect on thunderstorm severity. You get along the Front Range of the Rockies (from Cheyenne to Raton, along I-25) and you'll have very violent thunderstorms and large tornadoes form along the Foothills. Some of the largest hailstones I've ever witnessed were North of Denver, a few years back. Only place I have seen softball-sized hail!

 

[Dobalovr]

Anyway, I am also the "first one" off the golf course too at the first HINT of a storm

I always hold up a 1 iron not even GOD can hit a 1 iron.......

 

[amazinblue82]

I always hold up a 1 iron not even GOD can hit a 1 iron.......

gotta give it to ya on that one...that's funny right there.

 

[amazinblue82]

Dry air is not conducive to tornado activity. Most places West of the Rockies are pretty good for lack of tornadoes. BUT, tornadoes can happen anywhere, at any elevation; and all 50 US states have experienced them. They are common in the Prairie Provinces of Canada, as well.

Elevation really has no effect on thunderstorm severity. You get along the Front Range of the Rockies (from Cheyenne to Raton, along I-25) and you'll have very violent thunderstorms and large tornadoes form along the Foothills. Some of the largest hailstones I've ever witnessed were North of Denver, a few years back. Only place I have seen softball-sized hail!

no debate from me..i am sure not a "weather man".

only softball sized hail i ever witnessed was in Dallas in the 80's. damndest thing i ever saw.

my thought was that TO THE EXTENT that elevation (higher up you go, colder it gets, reducing potentially the warm/moist air that wants to rise/feed the storm) affects temperature, the likelihood for super-cell T-storm development is less than in lower elevations....no other way to explain that seasonal dot map except elevated/mountainous topography and/or aridity (and tendancy for steering jet streams?), no?

there is a dot in every state which clearly indicates severe weather/tornadoes do/did happen everywhere in the country, some areas way more than others as we all know who live/lived in these places.

this is another NOAA chart that has average numbers by state...doesn't indicate severity but gotta figure were there are MORE tornadoes the likelihood of really bad storms goes up..even though a "bad storm(s)" can and will surely happen almost anywhere.

 

[amazinblue82]

oh wow...look at that.

EF4-EF5 tornado map 1950-2011 (we know there have been more in past five years)

 

[patrick66]

The criteria for what is now an EF-4 and EF-5 tornado was REDUCED from the old Fujita scale (F-0 - F-5); therefore, it LOOKS LIKE on paper that "OMG, we're having more severe tornadoes than ever!"! In reality, with the Enhanced Fujita (EF) scale, the wind speeds were reduced to actually make more tornadoes fit the higher end of the spectrum.

The Enhanced scale below shows an EF-5 at just >200 mph wind speeds, where the old F-scale shows F-5 damage at 261 - 318 mph. So, now more tornadoes are showing as EF-4 and EF-5, seemingly more severe tornadoes, and it's actually a game of numbers. And old F-3 tornado (what hit my home at over 200 mph) would be an EF-5 today.

 

[rags]

the little orange line in center of mass was the storm i was referring to. that was 2011. mile wide stretch still scarred. i look at all those other lines in the middle and just imagine the scene from mass over and over. can't help but feel bad at the thought of all the ruin. thankfully there's only one line through fla. hope this bodes well for sebring. hey tink you start some great threads! SG

 

[Tink]

Its been argued here in my neck of the woods whether it was a F1 tornado or straight line winds that caused damage to a structure due to a thunderstorm. We've seen the green sky that scares everyone. In my 38 years here, I've never seen or heard about a slab scraping tornado near here. I recall a cinder block wall knocked down at a grocery store close to home once in the 80's. I've never heard the sirens warning doom around here or anywhere I have ever called home. Hurricanes offer warnings days in advance. In my mind, earthquakes and tornadoes are sudden events and I would not feel very comfortable living where they were common.

 

[amazinblue82]

Elevation versus tornado occurrences. higher you go, the less likely a tornado will form... but they do form (look at southern Idaho for example).

Apparently the temperature, terrain, and humidity combine to disrupt the massive cells that produce tornadoes.

However, I guess you can always get a strong storm, high winds and lightning, etc. almost anywhere in the mountains...enough to cause a really bad day for you if you're caught unprepared.

but look at eastern foothills of the Rockies - lit up like a Christmas Tree as you move into the Plains.

and in eastern TN/western NC border.. it looks like an EF1 went through a "gap" in the Appalachians. Good old WV..gettin' away clean.

 

[amazinblue82]

I mentioned earlier the June 8, 1966 F5 that hit Topeka when we lived there. I wont post all the depressing damage pictures..but they are out there online.

I also wont go into the things we saw ... and the things OTHER people saw as I listened to adult conversations. It was terrible carnage.

I will put this up...the storm path, where we were, and the fact no one we knew was killed. The tornado was meandering a bit, lifting and settling, but it was still a city block or two (or more) wide when it got to us (red arrow I put on map).

Our house lost windows (they all were blown OUTWARD) and roof pieces, tree landed on garage, there were blades of grass like porcupine needles in the wood siding, debris everywhere,..then the house next door was basically untouched, then four in a row leveled.

Enough of that. Lets all try to stay safe why don't we..and take weather threats seriously.

 

[Fury440]

That's pretty scary, I'd pack up my family and find some place safer to live. Life ain't long enough to put up with that crap!

 

[patrick66]

I remember the myths about tornadoes:

1) They don't turn - That is pure BS.
2) They don't cross rivers or low-lying areas. More BS.
3) They die out, once they hit terrain. Wrong again. Terrain doesn't matter. The conditions for a tornado to form and continue as a tornado DO matter.
4) They don't start in hilly or mountainous areas. A tornado doesn't care where it starts - as long as the weather requirements for one to form are there, it will form.
5) My favorite - A tornado won't form over water...What do you think a "waterspout" is???
6) Opening windows in your house will save your house from the pressure changes and keep your home intact. - Absolute BS! It does nothing but make your home MORE susceptible to damage and destruction. The weakest point in most homes for wind is the garage door(s). Large, flexible, and weak. When they blow, your home now becomes a giant windsock, and the wind will blow your interior walls out along with the roof at that point. Garage doors go? Your home follows in one of two seconds. Same thing applies with the open windows.

The funny things about the tornado that struck my house and shop were interesting to me. First, the roof of the house raised completely off the house, then set right back down, one inch off to the North. Next, the camper shell on the back of my '96 Dodge Cummins 3500 was completely destroyed, with the largest piece we found, being the front window. BUT, two big boxes of Avon products remained undamaged in the bed (wife was an Avon lady then!). A 1953 Hudson Hornet I had flew about 600 feet through the air, and landed on its' tires. It then rolled about 400' through the pasture and did a J-turn, rolling backwards. Very little damage on that car! Next was my Ford pickup. It was picked up three times and had the crap beat out of it. The tailgate was the only bit that was undamaged. My IN-dash stereo was uninstalled by the tornado and never found. The hood went bye-bye, too. My screen door stayed put and locked. It bent the frame on my A-C tractor! Lots, lots more happened. We found stuff in our field from our house (and others) for over four years.

 

[amazinblue82]

That's pretty scary, I'd pack up my family and find some place safer to live. Life ain't long enough to put up with that crap!

Yeah, i get your point.

The Forum tossed this around in an earthquake thread last year, probably in other threads as well. Most of us live where we want, where we are happy, etc, and we put up with extreme conditions (storms, floods, quakes, etc.) inherent to life on this planet.

Extreme planetary events ARE scary..but many MORE things than the weather wind up doing us in. Saw a CDC study (its only) 2006-2011, that said 2,000 Americans die from "weather-related" caused. 31% heat-related, 63% are cold-related, and 6% from floods and storms and lightning, or 120 people. This is versus 30,000 a year in vehicle accidents and 4,000 a year in swimming accidents.

I resist saying "only 120 people"-- that's crass and insensitive. But with preparation and vigilance, and with warnings and the "Weather Channel", etc., we can potentially reduce the risks we face from extreme weather when it happens.

The time to do all that is NOT when a big a** tornado is in your backyard, bearing down on your house. Its when the weather folks issue a "tornado watch", that's what they mean (dew points, humidity, temperature, wind direction, dry line, and other atmospherics etc. are lining up to create the risks).

So you "watch" the sky, listen to reports, know in advance what you and your family are gonna do IF ... they issue a " tornado warning", which is because somebody saw something - hook echo or Doppler wind rotation signature, a funnel cloud in the air or one on the ground, etc, -- a county over OR about 2 miles away, moving at 45 mph in your direction or toward others you care about.

Quakes, hurricanes, brush fires, floods... even the conditions preceding them are almost ALWAYS subject to some degree of foreknowledge allowing a chance to prepare. Live near a fault line, you might get a quake at some unpredictable time. Live in a plains state, you might see a tornado March - October every year. And so on.

I hate tornadoes but loved livin' in Kansas regardless. Aint "scared" of tornadoes, but i DO "respect" them.

 

[amazinblue82]

I remember the myths about tornadoes:

1) They don't turn - That is pure BS.
2) They don't cross rivers or low-lying areas. More BS.
3) They die out, once they hit terrain. Wrong again. Terrain doesn't matter. The conditions for a tornado to form and continue as a tornado DO matter.
4) They don't start in hilly or mountainous areas. A tornado doesn't care where it starts - as long as the weather requirements for one to form are there, it will form.
5) My favorite - A tornado won't form over water...What do you think a "waterspout" is???
6) Opening windows in your house will save your house from the pressure changes and keep your home intact. - Absolute BS! It does nothing but make your home MORE susceptible to damage and destruction. The weakest point in most homes for wind is the garage door(s). Large, flexible, and weak. When they blow, your home now becomes a giant windsock, and the wind will blow your interior walls out along with the roof at that point. Garage doors go? Your home follows in one of two seconds. Same thing applies with the open windows.

The funny things about the tornado that struck my house and shop were interesting to me. First, the roof of the house raised completely off the house, then set right back down, one inch off to the North. Next, the camper shell on the back of my '96 Dodge Cummins 3500 was completely destroyed, with the largest piece we found, being the front window. BUT, two big boxes of Avon products remained undamaged in the bed (wife was an Avon lady then!). A 1953 Hudson Hornet I had flew about 600 feet through the air, and landed on its' tires. It then rolled about 400' through the pasture and did a J-turn, rolling backwards. Very little damage on that car! Next was my Ford pickup. It was picked up three times and had the crap beat out of it. The tailgate was the only bit that was undamaged. My IN-dash stereo was uninstalled by the tornado and never found. The hood went bye-bye, too. My screen door stayed put and locked. It bent the frame on my A-C tractor! Lots, lots more happened. We found stuff in our field from our house (and others) for over four years.

Ah, yes, Central Oklahoma. you know your stuff patrick66..because you have to to keep yourself, family, and friends safe.

Though deadly, its strange what you find, or don't find after these tornadoes. Leaving the tragic human element out (we are NO match for these storms), in Topeka in '66, we saw a city bus wrapped like a hairpin around a utility pole, a ten story building still standing but stripped of all its windows and virtually everything on every floor, an observatory dome (over a telescope) steel, about 30 ft in diameter, 10 tons NEVER found to this day, etc. Terrifying but fascinating at the same time.

An aside..Bill Kurtis' career (the national exposure he got afterward) was made during this event. "Its coming...if you're not under cover now, for God's sake, take cover!" He was a young reporter at WIBW-TV in Topeka reporting live as this thing was tearin' through the city.

 

[patrick66]

I found a very nice yellow R/R crossing sign afterwards in our yard. The closest rail crossing where that sign may have come from was about eight miles away. And it was nearly perfect! It's in my shop these days!

 

[BIGBARNEYCARS]

AH Tink. Stay away from Austin and a bit north then. In the late '90s I saw a category 3 gut an Albertson's in Cedar Park little bit west of Round Rock and left the two east and west walls standing and nothing at all left between them. And a year after that I saw what happens when a category 5 comes south rite down I-35 and decides to suck the well laid and permanently planted asphalt off a city street and bark off all the trees in Jarrell 'bout 20 miles north of Round Rock and close to 3 dozen lives lost out of a town of less then 500 on a work day that time.