Total Fantasyland: Aluminum Blocks

[bajajoaquin]

Does anyone know anything about aluminum RB blocks? I see that World Products makes the cast iron MP block and made an aluminum block as well.

They're obviously targeted to the racing market, but would they hold up as a daily driver with appropriate cams and components? I mean, nobody is really going to spend $6k on a block before rebuilding to build a mild street motor, but in theory....

Would it work, or do they have issues with thermal expansion or other things that would blow head gaskets, eat bearings, or something else?

 

[commando1]

You don't need me on this question but I'll read what the other replies say.

 

[68plymouth383]

Are you building it for your imperial? Or in another car?

 

[bajajoaquin]

Well, I'm not building it. Just fantasizing about it. But yes, it would be for my Imperial, for Stan's Chrysler, whatever. Not a race motor. Something you could drive every day. You might or might not put headers on it, depending on how your felt about it.

Just discussing what-ifs on a discussion forum.

 

[65sporty]

If you run aluminum heads you wont have thermal expansion problems, most products built for racing are usually more durable to handle the extra stress of racing. A lot of automakers are going to all aluminum engines. Just think a big inch all aluminum big block that weighs less than a small block. Now where did I put my lotto ticket?

 

[heyoldguy]

Blind guides of the blind.

 

[bluefury361]

You would have no problems using an aluminum block and heads for a stock build. The only advantage is weight loss.

 

[commando1]

Now let's list all the cons.....

 

[tallhair]

Blind guides of the blind.

Why don't you shed some light old guy

 

[bajajoaquin]

Now let's list all the cons.....

Cost.

Anything else? I mean that's kind of the point is to find out about the cons.

 

[commando1]

Yep. Cost.
So, what it comes down to is $$ vs. weight difference.
Now, you have to look if the $$ for the alloy block could be used better elsewhere.
If you run out of every possibile thing you can possibly do to the build and still have money left over, well, might as well go alloy then.
If you are a serious racer with a true race car, and the .05 seconds gain means something, that is one thing. If you are not a pro racer, the air temp. change on any given day will produce a greater effect on the e.t. than the few pounds of weight shed.

 

[moper]

Preface - my exprience with them is very limited, I have worked with a few and witnessed carnage of others... So in my limited opinion -
World and Indy blocks suck IMO. KB are generally good assuming you can wait for them (months lead time). Your builder should have experience building aluminum block engines as there are differences. (A fellow local to me wasted thousands in doing things over with a World block Hemi conbination because he chose the wrong shop - one with mopar experience going back to the 70s - to do the sourcing/machining/assembly work).
World and Indy blocks will machining to have any quality to them so expect to have to do that. KB is more $$ but more choices and the finish machining is much higher quality (but should still be checked). Depending on what manufacturer is chosen you may need to specify a bunch of stuff when it's ordered.

 

[commando1]

A "seasoned" factory iron block 440 from the '70s that have the thicker webs.
Only go .030 on the over bore and the block itself with carefully chosen components can go 1,000 hp.
WhyTF would anybody want to pay thousands for a crudely hogged out aftermarket block made out of soft material.
People just leave me EFN dumb founded in their supposed logic sometimes.

 

[bajajoaquin]

A "seasoned" factory iron block 440 from the '70s that have the thicker webs.
Only go .030 on the over bore and the block itself with carefully chosen components can go 1,000 hp.
WhyTF would anybody want to pay thousands for a crudely hogged out aftermarket block made out of soft material.
People just leave me EFN dumb founded in their supposed logic sometimes.

Why the personal attacks? Because here we go again. The compromises you think are appropriate are smart and well-considered. The compromises other people want to make are idiotic and stupid.

In a street car, why would you build a 1,000 hp combination (you would for sure need headers for that)? If the "capacity" of your block is the standard you want to use, then a KB aluminum block is more than twice as good, since they seem to be good up to about 2,000 hp. (And, by the way, the consensus seems to be that a stock block is good for about 800 hp before the mains start walking.) That sounds to me to be the "EFN dum founded" supposed logic.

Can you explain the soft material part? I don't think that Mercedes aluminum blocks have any problems being too soft, and the late-60s early-70s 4.5 V-8s are pretty awesome engines. And if it really is a problem, you could have just said so, rather than getting so wrapped around the axle.

As for real shortcomings, it seems that the Keith Black blocks have no provision for internal oiling, which would mean external oil lines that generally don't clear stock mounting. Internal oil galleries also require different engine mounts on one side. No provision for a mechanical water pump, either.

World Products claims that their blocks maintain provision for mounting all external factory accessories, but there seems to be some question about quality.

It's also not clear about the durability of the seal of the cast iron liners to the block. There seems to have been some progress in design and assembly, but at least early designs seemed to have something going on there.

I'd be curious to know more information about this (I'm hoping that HeyOldGuy will chime in with some real-life experience).

 

[bajajoaquin]

Your builder should have experience building aluminum block engines as there are differences. (A fellow local to me wasted thousands in doing things over with a World block Hemi conbination because he chose the wrong shop - one with mopar experience going back to the 70s - to do the sourcing/machining/assembly work).

What did he need to have done over? What went wrong?

 

[commando1]

Stop this thing about "attacks". No such thing!
We're bench racing here.
Your thread topic is "Totally Fantasyland. Alluminum blocks."
You want to have a forum discussion or do you want to get everybody to stroke you off to a happing ending??
We're discussing alluminum blocks. My part of the discussion of alluminum blocks is the iron block side of the story.

 

[bajajoaquin]

Stop this thing about "attacks". No such thing!
We're bench racing here.
Your thread topic is "Totally Fantasyland. Alluminum blocks."
You want to have a forum discussion or do you want to get everybody to stroke you off to a happing ending??
We're discussing alluminum blocks. My part of the discussion of alluminum blocks is the iron block side of the story.

Okay, then, back up your comments. What are the problems you didn't really identify? Other than thinking that a 1000 hp stock block would be streetable? If you're going to discuss, discuss. Don't just throw crap at the wall and see what sticks.

 

[commando1]

Your FantasyLand is very hostile. I don't think you understand fantasy.

 

[68plymouth383]

how's your imperial coming along? We haven't heard anything in a while....

 

[tallhair]

Yep. Cost.
So, what it comes down to is $$ vs. weight difference.
Now, you have to look if the $$ for the alloy block could be used better elsewhere.
If you run out of every possibile thing you can possibly do to the build and still have money left over, well, might as well go alloy then.
If you are a serious racer with a true race car, and the .05 seconds gain means something, that is one thing. If you are not a pro racer, the air temp. change on any given day will produce a greater effect on the e.t. than the few pounds of weight shed.

Yes on air temp, elevation and other factors out of your control but they are variances that effect everyone at the track that day.

For the sake of discussion the effect on E.T. depends on how much lighter the aluminum block is and more .. like weight of the car, HP/TQ, weight distribution, etc, etc

100 lbs is roughly 1/10 or .10 is the old saying, although obviously lot's of other factors play into it. I imagine the alum block vs iron is more than a 40 lb difference and if you were gonna run an aluminum block you would also be running other alum vs iron items like heads and intake and doing other things like moving the batt to the trunk etc.

Bob could check his quarter mile ET calculator for the weight of the Imp before and after ... but give some actual weights