Total Fantasyland: Aluminum Blocks

[commando1]

You say a tenth of a second, I said .05.
For the sake of peace and harmony, I will yield to the other .05 seconds.
:icon_wink:

 

[tallhair]

You say a tenth of a second, I said .05.
For the sake of peace and harmony, I will yield to the other .05 seconds.
:icon_wink:

FYI the difference between .05 and .1 is a 100% difference

I said per 100 pounds not total difference. You brought up E.T.s and I was just responding to your comment

His question is a theoretical one not a dollars and sense one, so it is essentially absent cost which he acknowledged made no sense in the daily driver world in his original post.

They're obviously targeted to the racing market, but would they hold up as a daily driver with appropriate cams and components? I mean, nobody is really going to spend $6k on a block before rebuilding to build a mild street motor, but in theory....

Would it work, or do they have issues with thermal expansion or other things that would blow head gaskets, eat bearings, or something else?

I'm guessing Joaquin is talking about this block ... per the website it weighs 142 lbs http://www.theengineshop.com/produc...-440w-big-blocks/bmp-440w-aluminum-block.html


Per AR Engineering's website as one source for weights - http://arengineering.com/tech/sonic-checking-the-mopar-big-block/

"The 1977 440 block with the thick cylinder walls weighs in at a porky 234 pounds!

The following results are interesting.

Bare blocks with main caps

1964 413 block 220 lbs

1966 426W block 227 lbs

1977 440 block 234 lbs

1969 383 block 220 lbs

1972 400 block 218 lbs "

Just discussion for the sake of discussion but that Aluminum 440 is gonna have way more TQ and HP than a stock Iron engine .. and if you want to talk about all out race engines the iron one may well wind up costing as much as the aluminum one in the long run

Using the 77 440 weight of 234 lbs as a comparison to the 142 lb Aluminum alum block World product listed that's a difference of 92 lbs so just a little less than 100 lbs, but no one is going to buy an expensive aluminum block and run iron heads, manifolds, intake and the other components so total weight difference from building an aluminum 440 vs a stock call cast iron 440 motor and manifolds etc is going to probably be in the 200 lbs or more range easy.

That alone could be 2 tenths ... but then you would also have to factor in the additional HP and torque the aluminum motor would be making over the stocker even if it's not an all out race engine and the effect of less front end weight bias etc

 

[commando1]

Actually I was referring to two engines, clones to each other, only 1 being an iron block and the other being alloy.

But, at this point it is kind of moot as we all get the point.

 

[tallhair]

Actually I was referring to two engines, clones to each other, only 1 being an iron block and the other being alloy.

But, at this point it is kind of moot as we all get the point.

well ... OK

 

[bajajoaquin]

Actually I was referring to two engines, clones to each other, only 1 being an iron block and the other being alloy.

I think that's a fair assumption.

It also looks like the only real down side is cost, and the costs are more than just the block. If it's a KB block, you need to have custom motor mounts, headers, and oiling, and have an electric water pump.

If it's a World block, they claim all Mopar accessories bolt on, but there are conflicting reports about machining requirements.

Add to that the issue that may or may not exist in cylinder liner sealing. All for a weight reduction of 92 lbs.

So I guess if you already had your $100k Cuda, and thought that a 4-speed formal had been done too many times, this would be an option.

Would still love to hear what sorts of problems were encountered building one of these, though.

 

[commando1]

OK. I have never evened worked on an alloy block, well... there was the Vegas, down the street from me is a Charger with all KB components from top to bottom. Outrageous dyno numbers he says. I can't verify. What I can verify with my own eyes is an aluminum block on his garage floor where the main caps ripped away from the block, ARP bolts and inserts together.

 

[RemCharger]

Just discussion for the sake of discussion but that Aluminum 440 is gonna have way more TQ and HP than a stock Iron engine ..

If I may join the discussion?you must be talking about a "completely aluminum" 440 (heads etc?). Because theoretically, (and practically) an al-you-mineeum BLOCK version will have less hp+tq than its iron forefather. Aluminum blocks have way more flex, which robs power.

 

[tallhair]

If I may join the discussion?you must be talking about a "completely aluminum" 440 (heads etc?). Because theoretically, (and practically) an al-you-mineeum BLOCK version will have less hp+tq than its iron forefather. Aluminum blocks have way more flex, which robs power.

I've moved on

 

[RemCharger]

Lol, fair enough. I will stand by my point, but this discussion is bit to meandering for it to mean anything. I took it as "does an aluminum block make more power than an iron block" . My apologies!

 

[tallhair]

No, it's great you joined in and most threads on FCBO meander here and there that's why we love it ;)

 

[68plymouth383]

Yeah we usually meander off topic....

 

[RemCharger]

Hey that's cool. I'm a bit of a hardcore race guy,, so I meandered into the conversation haha.

 

[bajajoaquin]

If I may join the discussion?you must be talking about a "completely aluminum" 440 (heads etc?). Because theoretically, (and practically) an al-you-mineeum BLOCK version will have less hp+tq than its iron forefather. Aluminum blocks have way more flex, which robs power.

Hey that's cool. I'm a bit of a hardcore race guy,, so I meandered into the conversation haha.

Yeah, any real insight is welcome.

I thought you were going to say that the thermal qualities of aluminum were going to rob some power. I thought that some tests on aluminum heads kind of disproved that theory. But as far as flex, you may have a point. Some of the documentation on aluminum blocks says that because of thermal expansion, you should only run them hard when warm, since they will change shape significantly enough to change the power produced.

Aluminum is also about a third the weight of steel. So an aluminum block made in the same pattern as an iron block would be lots more than 92 pounds lighter than aluminum. It would be about 180 lb lighter. But, since aluminum is also 1/3 the strength of steel. I'm mixing apples and oranges here, because I think the density of steel and cast iron is similar, but the difference in strength isn't.

So you add more webbing to an aluminum block, you add cast iron sleeves to run the bores. That adds weight. But how much of the strength does it add back? You're saying that it doesn't add it all back. Interesting.