1967 727 rebuild -> which rockauto parts/set needed?

[Wolli]

Hello,

my 1967 Chrysler Town and Country hardly moves due to longer driving with less oil (I bought it in that condition) -> has a lot of slip in the forward gears. Now I will rebuild the transmission, but I am not sure, which set, brand and parts I have to order from rockauto.
Do you have any recommendation?

Best regards,

Lars

 

[CBODY67]

Normally, there are three kinds of items. "Frictions" which is clutch friction plates and any bands. "Steels" are the metal plates that go between the friction plates. "Seals" should include all of the rubber and plastic o-rings, gaskets, and seals needed to do the rebuild.

You can go a bit outside of the RockAuto realm of things and look for a B&M transmission rebuild kit. That should include three levels of rebuild. Stock, High Performance, and Race. All in the same kit. They also sell their own brand of atf, "Trick Shift", too. Probably from Summit Racing or similar.

As to fluid . . . TorqueFlite were pretty insensitive to fluid. Starting with the old "Type A Suffix A" fluid in the earlier 1960s. Then the Dexron-spec fluid from 1968 onward, to the latest Dexron III fluid, now termed "Type III" by ACDelco. Not sure how these might translate into the Chrysler "ATF+__" terminology, though. One of them is semi-synthetic and the latest ones are full-synthetic. At one time, there were comments about full-syn fluid and some rubber seals not playing well over time, but that was 20+ years ago. Of course, the full-syn will be more expensive.

In order to just get things going, you might initially fill with Dexron III and ensure everything is working well first. After a year or longer, then go to one of the newer-spec fluids?

To do things a little bit cleaner, you might get a 12V extractor pump to pump the fluid out via the dipstick tube before you drop the oil pan. Just have about 12 quarts worth of containers to put the old fluid in. Which can then be poured into the containers the new fluid came in, if desired. They used to be about $35.00 USD in Amazon.

Just some thoughts,
CBODY67

 

[MONC440]

Is your engine stock? Do you plan any modifications to the engine to increase horsepower?

I have rebuild many 727's and 904's and I can give you my recommendations after you answer the above questions.

 

[MoPar~Man]

My car ('67 Monaco) sat in storage for 20 years, it was low on transmission oil and it would not shift into reverse (well, I could shift it into reverse but the car did not move). I had to add 2 liters of oil. I have since changed the shifter seal and the rear output seal and the o-ring on the fillter tube and a new transmission pan gasket. I did not change any bands or do anything else inside the transmission. You may not need to do that either other than fix the leaks.

Note that the 727, like all transmissions from the 60's and probably 70's have "non-lockup" torque converters. This type of operation is more stressful for transmission fluid vs the more universal lockup torque converter that is common for the past 30 years. There is more heat and shear stress on AT fluid in a non-locking torque converter, and a high-quality (and more expensive) fluid like Mobil ATF+4 will last much longer and perform better than the semi-synthetic (and cheaper) alternatives.

There is a Mobil ATF Multi-vehicle transmission oil available in Europe, I presume this includes Germany. It is listed as being compatible with Chrysler ATF+ / ATF+2 / ATF+3 / MS 7176E and several other Chrysler / Dodge / Jeep standards. Chrysler introduced MS 7176E in 1997 as ATF+3.

See this 2003 thread for more details:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/chrysler-atfs.38066/

Most or all of what ATF discussions and technical focus and opinion has been on for the past 30 years will pertain to transmissions with lockup torque converters and computer-controlled clutches. So there will be little hard data to point to when it comes to how the various oil options cope with our 50-60 year old torqueflites with non-lockup converters.

While I was typing this, I was having a short online chat with (a person or bot?) on the mobile.eu website. I asked if Mobile ATF+4 was available in Germany, he says "Let me check - No data regarding the product availability.". I then asked if Mobile Multi-Vehicle oil was available in Germany, the answer was Yes. I then asked if there was an available ATF+4 oil, after a few minutes he came back and asked for what vehicle, I answered with 1967 Chrysler Newport with torqueflight automatic transmission, fully expecting this chat to go off the rails at that point, which it did. Here is the response:

"unfortunately our system does not contains before 1980 specs. For more advanced support you can send us mail in English or German techdeskeurope <techdeskeurope@exxonmobil.com>"

I would still say that that the Mobile Multi-Vehicle oil is a valid option for you. You might want to go down this rabbit hole and see if the techdeskeurope has anything authoritative to say about your oil options.

 

[CBODY67]

In looking at ANY atf labeled "Multi-Make", you HAVE to read the back of the container to see WHICH "multi-make" it is mentioning! Some Aisian-spec "multi-make" atf is not for USA brands of vehicles, but Hondas and such.

The "Multi-Make" atf you want is the one which includes "GM Dexron" and "Ford Mercon" in the vehicle description on the container. I discovered this distinction in looking at atf at WalMart.

Enjoy!
CBODY67

 

[MoPar~Man]

In looking at ANY atf labeled "Multi-Make", you HAVE to read the back of the container to see WHICH "multi-make" it is mentioning! Some Aisian-spec "multi-make" atf is not for USA brands of vehicles, but Hondas and such.

As I said, this Mobil "multi-make" does list many Chrysler specs.

Mobil ATF Multi-Vehicle

Mobil ATF Multi-Vehicle is a premium fully synthetic lubricant formulated from selected high-quality synthetic base oils combined with an advanced additive system designed to meet the service fill needs of the broadest range of step-type automatic transmissions in vehicles from European...

www.mobil.eu

But I think looking closely at the specs today has almost no value when trying to match them up with our old torqueflights. Those specs are dust now.

Where is the whale oil today in the 1967 ATF specs?

Just like engine oil and gasoline. Where is the zinc in today's oils? Where is the lead in today's gasoline? Replaced with ethanol that never used to be there.

 

[CBODY67]

My point is that there is more than one "Multi-Make" atf on the market. Depends upon the intended use in which brand of vehicle. Apparently the Mobil bot was not aware of that? It had not read the back of the container, apparently.

Or perhaps Mobil only has one USA-region "Multi-Make" atf, which is the database (USA-region, determined from your contact mode) it was operating from. USA-region would be different than European-region, where the poster is located.

Whale oil was a friction modifier additive. With modern chemical tech, better options exist. Especially after the sperm whales became an endangered species in the 1970s era.

"Zddp" is still around AND has somewhat returned in the latest "SP" API specs. In Mr. Speed, Jr.'s videos, he mentions that "zddp" is not generic, but has several classifications. Classifications which include "gas engine" and "diesel engine". He also mentions that as calcium is decreased, it can make the lesser zddp level act like it is more effective, with less needed to get a desired affect. A "balance" must be maintained for best results.

Better living through modern (and better understood) chemistry . . .

CBODY67

 

[MoPar~Man]

Just posting this for our European friends:

Rymax Atexio +4 ATF is a fully synthetic automatic transmission fluid (ATF) and particularly recommended for Chrysler automatic transmissions. This product is also suitable for power steering systems and hydraulic systems, where an excellent low temperature fluidity is required.

This ATF meets the +4 ATF (MS-9602) service fill specification and replaces ATF+3 (MS-7176). Rymax Atexio +4 ATF is especially recommended for top-up or re-fill after repair or revision of Chrysler automatic transmissions where an ATF +3 and ATF +4 are prescribed.

Atexio +4

Rymax Atexio +4 ATF is a fully synthetic automatic transmission fluid (ATF) and particularly recommended for Chrysler automatic transmissions. This…

rymax-lubricants.com

There's a listing for what countries you can find this oil. In Europe, Germany is apparently not on the list, but Finland, Sweden, Norway, France and Switzerland is.


Actual Mopar ATF+4 in Germany can be found here:

Buy Mopar ATF+4 at ATO24 ❗

Recommended for Chrysler, Dodge and Jeep automatic transmissions For certain manuals transmissions and power steering systems recommended Compatible with ATF+, ATF+2, ATF+3 spezifictions

ato24.de

From that site:

=============================
Backwards compatible with ATF+, ATF+2 and ATF+3

Mopar ATF+4 is the successor to the previous products ATF+, ATF+2 and ATF+3, which are no longer available as OEM products, as ATF +4 automatic transmission fluid is fully backwards compatible. Development work by major automakers on automatic transmission fluid picked up steadily in the 1980s after initial efforts that can be traced back to the 1940s. In addition to products from Ford, GM and Toyota, Chrysler introduced "ATF+" automatic transmission fluid with the Chrysler MS-7176 specification. In line with the rapid technical development, the "ATF+" was quickly followed by the Chrysler MS-7176D and Chrysler MS-7176E specifications in 1993 and 1997, which were introduced as "ATF+2" and "ATF+3" automatic transmission oils. Significant for these two further developments of the original ATF+ was the improvement of the shear stability of these oils, i.e. the minimization of viscosity loss with increasing thermal load.

SAE Technical Paper 982674 gives the following shear losses from a 20-hour KRL shear test:

Chrysler MS-7176D ATF+2: 32%
Chrysler MS-7176E ATF+3: 14%

For immediate comparison, the test also cites results on the comparable GM Dexron III and Ford Mercon V specifications:

GM Dexron III: 40%
Ford Mercon V: 19%

The immense improvement in shear stability from ATF+2 to ATF+3 can be attributed to the use of the then new Group II base oil (for more details on the various base oil classes, see our blog article on automatic transmission oil), as well as the shear-stable viscosity index improver (VI improver for short) developed by Lubrizol.

Once again, an improvement was achieved by the ATF+4 oil with the Chrysler MS-9602 specification, which was factory-filled in automatic transmissions from 1998 onwards. By using a Texaco Group III base oil and another improved viscosity index improver from Lubrizol Corporation, the ATF+4 automatic transmission oil has a shear loss of only 10%.

In addition to the renewed improvement in shear stability, the focus in the development of the ATF+4 fluid was also on improving the ATF+3 automatic transmission fluid in terms of its longevity. In particular, the anti-shudder test cited in SAE Technical Paper 982674, which examines the behavior of an automatic transmission fluid as a function of mileage in terms of its potential to cause judder during transmission operation, shows significant improvements here: While an ATF+3 automatic transmission oil shows noticeable transmission judder after a mileage of 30,000 miles, an ATF+4 oil reaches the same value only after a mileage of 100,000 miles.

 

[CBODY67]

I'll admit that the ATF+ fluids are increasingly impressive in their fluid abilities, but they were also engineered for TFs and fwd transaxles with lock-up torque converters and electronic transmission control systems which could vary the line pressure as the clutches wore until there was no friction material left on the friction plates. Think "UltraDrive" in the fwd K-cars. NONE of this stuff was in the 727s prior to the 1976 model year or so, when all we had was analog loci-up torque converters.

With each additional "+ number" increase, the friction modifiers in the atf increased to work with the newer version of the transmissions. In many cases, semi-syn and later full-syn fluid was needed to counteract the heat of designed-in slippage of the frictions during shifts and also of the torque converter clutches.

When the LH cars arrived, their original atf spec was Dexron III plus a Chrysler atf additive, which waw a dose of friction modifier. The later ATF+ fluids superseded that for about the 1996+ model years.

In the old Usenet BBS Chrysler group "forum", Dr. Zatz had some comments in the FAQ section about atf. He mentioned that after about 40K miles, the additive package in Dexron III was pretty much depleted, but at that time, Chrysler was advocating a 30K mile atf change interval for HD trailering uses, back then. He noted how much longer the semi-syn ATF+__ fluid would last past that and still be "good". So, more benefits without a lot of extra cost/quart, which would seem like a good trade-off. For some of the later full-syn fluids, the price can be past $50.00/quart USD.

The NEXT question would be what the manufacturer of the rebuild kit recommends as their "minimum-spec" atf and if full-syn atf can be used, if desired. With respect to some of the rubber items in their kit.

So, more "judgment calls" as to ultimate expenditures vs. ultimate durability will be needed. Positioned against what the rebuild kit operatives might recommend as their "min-spec" atf.

Enjoy, y'all . . .
CBODY67

 

[Wolli]

Is your engine stock? Do you plan any modifications to the engine to increase horsepower?

I have rebuild many 727's and 904's and I can give you my recommendations after you answer the above questions.

Hi,

yes, my engine is stock and will be -> I have the 383cui

Thanks,

Lars

 

[Wolli]

In the old Usenet BBS Chrysler group "forum", Dr. Zatz had some comments in the FAQ section about atf. He mentioned that after about 40K miles, the additive package in Dexron III was pretty much depleted, but at that time, Chrysler was advocating a 30K mile atf change interval for HD trailering uses, back then. He noted how much longer the semi-syn ATF+__ fluid would last past that and still be "good". So, more benefits without a lot of extra cost/quart, which would seem like a good trade-off. For some of the later full-syn fluids, the price can be past $50.00/quart USD.

The NEXT question would be what the manufacturer of the rebuild kit recommends as their "minimum-spec" atf and if full-syn atf can be used, if desired. With respect to some of the rubber items in their kit.

In Germany you can buy Dexron III -> I filled up the transmission with that oil

 

[Wolli]

My car ('67 Monaco) sat in storage for 20 years, it was low on transmission oil and it would not shift into reverse (well, I could shift it into reverse but the car did not move). I had to add 2 liters of oil. I have since changed the shifter seal and the rear output seal and the o-ring on the fillter tube and a new transmission pan gasket. I did not change any bands or do anything else inside the transmission. You may not need to do that either other than fix the leaks.

Note that the 727, like all transmissions from the 60's and probably 70's have "non-lockup" torque converters. This type of operation is more stressful for transmission fluid vs the more universal lockup torque converter that is common for the past 30 years. There is more heat and shear stress on AT fluid in a non-locking torque converter, and a high-quality (and more expensive) fluid like Mobil ATF+4 will last much longer and perform better than the semi-synthetic (and cheaper) alternatives.

Hi,

I changed oil and filter and filled up with Dexron III, the revers is fully functional with very little slip, but the first two gears have a looooot of slip during start/acceleration. If the car is rolling, it seems to be good (3rd gear), so I think, I have to rebuild it.
Yeah, to find the correct oil here in Germany will be difficult

Best regards,

Lars

 

[Big_John]

Hi,

yes, my engine is stock and will be -> I have the 383cui

Thanks,

Lars

Since your engine is stock, it really isn't that important to buy a kit made for racing, so I'd say any of those kits at Rock Auto would be OK. Since you are in Germany and shipping is going to be the biggest expense, I'd suggest buying the most complete kit. That way, you have everything you might need, even if there's stuff you don't use.

A couple questions... First, since it was low or out of fluid, did you check the level in neutral with the car idling? I always ask that because people go down the rabbit hole without realizing they aren't checking the level correctly.

Next, have you ever rebuilt a transmission? The 727 is a pretty simple transmission to rebuild, but there's a couple tools that you need, but they can be sourced/built/modified at your local level. There are a couple books out there on rebuilding, and you need the Factory Service Manual. There's a couple books. (This one is a Kindle edition, but there are paper versions out there) Amazon.com for example that will lead you through the rebuild easier than the FSM does. Another Amazon.com

Concerning the fluid... I once had a Chrysler engineer tell me to use "Type F" for a race car. Good advice, but not really needed for a stock street car. So, if you can get anything that's backwards compatible with the original Dexron, that's what you want. Way too much overthinking going on about it in this thread.

 

[CBODY67]

Yes, back then, the Ford-spec Type F atf was kind of like a "shift kit in a bottle", as it has a bit more initial "grab" compared to Dexron III, but by the time the shift is completed, it's all the same as to friction coefficients and such. But it can also relate to the "grab" of the clutch friction material, too. I suspect the kits at RockAuto will be more "consumer" than "race". So either atf would work and work well.

Take care,
CBODY67

 

[Owen11x]

I run Volvo heavy equipment ATF in a couple of my 727s Absolutely zero issues and I get it from work in 5 gallon pales so can't argue that deal. I've got 40+ gallons of it because they change vendors and I get all the new "old" brands

 

[MONC440]

If reverse is still working then your band is probably still good so I would order the kit below. I would also replace the front band also shown below.

Yes a 727 is fairly easy to rebuild but if you have to change any bushings you should have some experience with them. Also you MUST check end play or you could need another rebuild in short order.

As far as fluid as long as you are doing a full rebuild you can use Dex 3 then only use that from then on. I have done this many times. If you are going to reuse your old converter make sure you drain the fluid out. If it is a 1967 it should have a drain plug. Ps I do use type F for all my race builds or running a manual valve body.

 

[MoPar~Man]

Hi,

I changed oil and filter and filled up with Dexron III, the revers is fully functional with very little slip, but the first two gears have a looooot of slip during start/acceleration. If the car is rolling, it seems to be good (3rd gear), so I think, I have to rebuild it.
Yeah, to find the correct oil here in Germany will be difficult

Best regards,

Lars

Well Lars, just know that Dexton III is inferior to ATF+4. It will be fine for the first maybe 10k miles, but it will shear faster, and this will theoretically show up as a higher stall speed and reduced torque converter efficiency. You can buy Mopar ATF+4 at ato24.de.

 

[CBODY67]

"Worn" atf causing increased torque converter "stall" and decreased efficiency? Is that "something" in Canada?

GM and Chrysler recommended 100k changes in normal use with Dex III, back then. Heck, well into the 1980s! Most changed it before that, but that was the factory recommendations for "normal use". If it was good enough for 1968, good enough for current times.

Certainly, "inferior" to ATF+4, but still good enough as a "mnimum-spec" or "default mode" atf. I trust Lars will make an informed choice he is comfortable with AND for where he is located.

CBODY67