1967 Fury III 318 -> 440 questions

[Melifluonze]

Hi all!

I've got a bad 318 in my '67 Fury III. I'm thinking about dropping in a 440. A few questions, and I'm open to "don't forget" and "you'll need to" comments!

The 440 I'm looking at is a 1977/78 year, and comes with a 727 attached to it.

- Is the bell housing interchangeable on the 727 already in the car? Can I leave my original 727 in place and just swap out the '77/78 bell housing?

- best way around the motor mounts (small block to big block)? Are they really a replaceable item on the car frame?

- Going to have to rebuild the smog motor, but are the heads garbage? I've read good things about late model blocks, so not worried there... But I'm thinking maybe a 1967-69 motor might be better go get more of the right "bits and pieces"... Thoughts?

Thanks!!!

 

[CBODY67]

Would be easiest to do a stroker LA motor. Then do some upgrades to the trans frictions and such. A 904-family trans can be upgraded to handle the additional torque, by a trans shops that know what they are doing, and take less power to run than the 727 does. Which rear axle is in the car?

A 440 was a factory option, but there are a lot of little things that are different between the LA and B/RB motor cars, by observation. Plus the trans issues, motor mounts, etc. PLUS more weight on the front end, some of which can be decreased with aluminum heads, aluminum intake, and such. THEN consider how easy the B/RB engine spark plugs are to change compared to the LA motor!

Besides, you can have MORE fun with an incognito LA stroker (lower expectations from possible competitors) than a "big for all to see" B/RB motor! Aim more towards the "torque" side of things in camshaft selection, but with a free-flowing dual exhaust system (quieter than louder) so it can easily rev-up when needed. It'll still be a 400+cid motor, after all. To me, a "torque motor that rpms" can be a better compromise than an engine which needs 5000+rpm to do anything. FWIW

Enjoy!
CBODY67

 

[Melifluonze]

The Fury has a 727 in it, 8-3/4 rear.

 

[Big_John]

Is the bell housing interchangeable on the 727 already in the car? Can I leave my original 727 in place and just swap out the '77/78 bell housing?

No.

The bellhousing is integral to the trans.

 

[volksworld]

just some stuff for you to check...i believe big and small block 727s are different bolt pattern...many late 440s are cast crank (look at damper for evidence of an extra casting weight...i believe 440 source has a guide that compares all the stock dampers...i swear if you google it, it comes up... but if you just go to their website you cant find it....if it has the cast crank it also needs the matching weighted torque converter (that will be in the trans that comes with it... hopefully the 440 also comes with the kickdown linkage as thats different...check which side your lower hose outlet is on... later 440 is usually r/s...either requiring a different radiator or an earlier water pump housing and generally the accessory bracketry will differ on those so you may not be able to use what comes on the donor engine...trans cooler lines may differ and hit the oil filter...have fun...

 

[Big_John]

Would be easiest to do a stroker LA motor.

^This^

In order to swap to the 440, you have a list of things that will need to be changed and/or modified. Transmission, exhaust, radiator, mounts etc. to just start the list. Then you have to address the extra weight the 440 is bringing to the table.... A torsion bar swap may be something you want to think about.

A small block Mopar would be easy.... Just pull the old engine and drop the new one in place. The small block will be around 125lbs lighter than the big block too.

If I were thinking about a swap like that, I'd look at some of the crate engines. By the time you have that smogger 440 rebuilt and modified so it will run faster than the stock 318 you have now, I'll bet the crate engine is close to the same price... or at least the better "bang for the buck" option.

Read the part I said about "so it will run faster than the stock 318 you have now" a couple times too. The late 440 engines were real dogs in stock form.

 

[Melifluonze]

Thank you VERY MUCH for the replies! Digesting the info.

 

[Melifluonze]

I have a 360 -> 426 stroker that I built (Hughes kit). Was going to be for my Dart GT, but hmmm...

 

[1970FuryConv]

Hi all!

I've got a bad 318 in my '67 Fury III. I'm thinking about dropping in a 440. A few questions, and I'm open to "don't forget" and "you'll need to" comments!

The 440 I'm looking at is a 1977/78 year, and comes with a 727 attached to it.

- Is the bell housing interchangeable on the 727 already in the car? Can I leave my original 727 in place and just swap out the '77/78 bell housing?

- best way around the motor mounts (small block to big block)? Are they really a replaceable item on the car frame?

- Going to have to rebuild the smog motor, but are the heads garbage? I've read good things about late model blocks, so not worried there... But I'm thinking maybe a 1967-69 motor might be better go get more of the right "bits and pieces"... Thoughts?

Thanks!!!

The 440 I'm looking at is a 1977/78 year, and comes with a 727 attached to it.

- Is the bell housing interchangeable on the 727 already in the car? Can I leave my original 727 in place and just swap out the '77/78 bell housing? NO. 318,727 TRANS HAS SMALL BLOCK BOLT PATTERN. YOU NEED TO USE THE 77/78 TRANS

- best way around the motor mounts (small block to big block)? Are they really a replaceable item on the car frame?
NEED BIG BLOCK MOTOR MOUNTS & BRACKETS. YOU CAN BUY MOTOR MOUNTS ON EBAY OR AT A PARTS STORE. THE BRACKETS FOR THE MOUNTS TO INSTALL ON THE BLOCK ARE DIFFERENT SMALL BLOCK AND BIG BLOCK. I BELIEVE THE BRACKETS ARE THE SAME 1966 TO 1973. EASIEST TO PLACE A WANT AD.

- Going to have to rebuild the smog motor, but are the heads garbage? I've read good things about late model blocks, so not worried there... But I'm thinking maybe a 1967-69 motor might be better go get more of the right "bits and pieces"... Thoughts? LATER HEADS ARE NOT GARBAGE. THEY ARE OPEN CHAMBER AND BREATHE JUST AS WELL AS EARLIER HEADS. THEY ALSO HAVE HARDENED EXHAUST VALVE SEATS SO THEY ARE ALREADY SET UP FOR UNLEADED GAS.

 

[FURYGT]

The issue with the mounts is that the '73 & later big blocks used spool type mounts so you would need to change them over to the earlier style mounts on the block. Why not spend a little more and go with a Gen III Hemi?

 

[CBODY67]

When the Gen III Hemi arrived, Mopar Perf had carburetor manifolds and normal ignition systems for that engine, so it could be placed "anywhere", as i recall. Now that self-learning EFI is commonplace, which can also control ignition timing, so much the better. Just add the oxygen sensor and it can become a much-evolved Lean Burn or Electronic Spark Control system. But it also seems like the first gen had dual spark plugs, kind of like some of the later Gen II Race Hemis?

PLUS Holley seems to be trying to become the "late model engine swap One-Stop Shop" of sorts with kits for the older Chrysler bodies, just not C-bodies as of current time. But possibly some of the B-body items might be adapted to C-body swaps?

Just some thoughts,
CBODY67

 

[1970FuryConv]

The issue with the mounts is that the '73 & later big blocks used spool type mounts so you would need to change them over to the earlier style mounts on the block. Why not spend a little more and go with a Gen III Hemi?

Hi Bill,
Was that a mid-year change?
I had a 1973 Monaco 400 and with the earlier style mounts.

 

[FURYGT]

Not that I am aware of. My guess is that your '73 Monaco was an early build car.

 

[Melifluonze]

Well, found a 1967 383 and attached 727 for a good price. The gentleman mentions that it has 906 heads (he pulled a valve cover), which he believes are from a 440. Not sure the heads on a 383 and 440 are different, are they? Engine came out of a Fury and has the exhaust manifolds. 2 bbl intake & carb.

The comment about hardened valve seats is interesting... I wonder how much I should care. Enough to get late heads?

 

[CBODY67]

"906" heads started in 1970. Non-induction hardened valve seats, but 1.74" exh valves. Usually used to lower the compression ratio on pre-1970 engines, but with a 2bbl, it started at 9.2 rather than 10.0, so not really needed for that purpose. Allegedly breathed better, but the larger exh valves probably helped that. The 1.74" exh valves started with the 1967 440/375 motor, but all B/RB heads are the same, fwiw.

The "induction hardening" for the valve seats was supposed to only go about .03" (?) deep, so the first valve job might wipe it out. Obviously, it went a bit deeper than that, I suspect.

Back in the earlier days of unleaded fuels, it became a bit popular to get hard seats installed in cyl heads to combat the wear between the valves and the cyl heads. Used to be about $200.00 back then, so it was an additional cost to a normal valve job.

I ran across and article in Chilton's "Automotive Industry" magazine where Chrysler took a '73 Town & Country wagon, equipped with the max trailer package, loaded up a trailer to their max recommended tow weight, and ran it around the track at their proving grounds at 70mph to see how long it would take to make the cyl heads "scrap metal". In '72 and '73, the Chry fuel recommendation was 1 tank of low-lead or leaded fuel in every three tanks of fuel, so the valve seats got some lead for valve seat lube, rather than "none" with using just unleaded fuels. So they ran this test using only unleaded fuel. By 12K miles on straight unleaded fuel and normal valve seats, the heads had become scrap iron. Valve seat erosion, once it starts, just continues to get worse as the hot exhaust gases erode the seats and such. This was a good bit more "heavy duty" use than just driving down the road in a normal fashion, so it would probably take longer for a "normal use" situation to get to the same situation, I suspect. So, use your own judgment.

Whether a 383 or 440, the same issues with putting a B/RB engine where an LA engine originally was will STILL be the same. You might be seeking to not spend much money, but you will spend more money, even with a 383.

Personally, I like 383s more than 440s. They are a good engine with good power and fuel economy. A bit better economy than a 440, due to the smaller engine size. Remember, too, that the 2bbl on a 383 is the same size as the primaries on a 4bbl, back then. So while ultimate performance will be less, normal driving will be pretty much the same.

Your money. Your dreams. Your labor.

Enjoy!
CBODY67

 

[Big_John]

"906" heads started in 1970.

1968

 

[1970FuryConv]

Well, found a 1967 383 and attached 727 for a good price. The gentleman mentions that it has 906 heads (he pulled a valve cover), which he believes are from a 440. Not sure the heads on a 383 and 440 are different, are they? Engine came out of a Fury and has the exhaust manifolds. 2 bbl intake & carb.

The comment about hardened valve seats is interesting... I wonder how much I should care. Enough to get late heads?

The 1967 383 came with 915 closed chamber heads. Unless the pistons have been changed, the 906 open chamber heads with stock 1967 pistons will significantly lower compression ratio. Something to compensate for when you rebuild it.

Personally, I'd do the 440 if I was going to the trouble of a big block rebuild and install. 3.75" 440-stroke gives a lot more torque to get a heavy car moving. Also, the 1977 trans has a better mid-range kickdown in the trans valve body.

 

[fury fan]

The 1967 383 came with 915 closed chamber heads. Unless the pistons have been changed, the 906 open chamber heads with stock 1967 pistons will significantly lower compression ratio. Something to compensate for when you rebuild it.

The 67 383 uses -516 heads. Only the 440 got the -915s.

@Melifluonze
What's your budget for all of this, how big of a project do you want, and how much will you do yourself?
So far we've mentioned cast-crank 440, 67 383, LA stroker, and Gen 3 Hemi.
Each engine presents a long list of pros/cons - none of which means anything without budget and talent info.

As an example - Gen 3 hemi makes 345+ hp stock, while 5.2 or 5.9 Magnum are 100hp less. So why not reach for the Hemi as they become cheaper/more avaialble?
Well, it'll cost a lot more for the integration parts (oil filter adapters, oil pan, EFI goodies, elec fuel pump, etc). Belt-drive items can be a hassle, also. And truck vs car engines have different fitment issues.
There are a number of G3s installed in C-bodies at this point, but with the different engine variations, fitment components, EFI conversions, etc, not everybody has done it the same way.
So the roadmaps are not tried/true yet.

A 5.2 or 5.9 (if complete and running) needs only an intake, carb and dizzy/ign module and can use most of your belt drive items. (although there are some details to watch for, of course, esp with the 5.9)
Add a mild cam to those engines and you can reach 300-325hp easily - and be totally swapped and running within 2 weeks - a Hemi will surely take longer.

IMHO -
A mildly-tweaked 5.2 Magnum would be the simplest swap, and even an unmodified one would add 100hp over a standard 2-barrel LA 318.
With 3.23 gears it would be a really nice driver with some speed and gas mileage.
And weighs about 100lbs less than a bigblock, which helps in everything (speed, handling, braking, mpg).
Only issue nowadays might be finding a good engine to use (unless you want to rebuild, or buy a reman engine).

 

[1970FuryConv]

The 67 383 uses -516 heads. Only the 440 got the -915s.

@Melifluonze
What's your budget for all of this, how big of a project do you want, and how much will you do yourself?
So far we've mentioned cast-crank 440, 67 383, LA stroker, and Gen 3 Hemi.
Each engine presents a long list of pros/cons - none of which means anything without budget and talent info.

As an example - Gen 3 hemi makes 345+ hp stock, while 5.2 or 5.9 Magnum are 100hp less. So why not reach for the Hemi as they become cheaper/more avaialble?
Well, it'll cost a lot more for the integration parts (oil filter adapters, oil pan, EFI goodies, elec fuel pump, etc). Belt-drive items can be a hassle, also. And truck vs car engines have different fitment issues.
There are a number of G3s installed in C-bodies at this point, but with the different engine variations, fitment components, EFI conversions, etc, not everybody has done it the same way.
So the roadmaps are not tried/true yet.

A 5.2 or 5.9 (if complete and running) needs only an intake, carb and dizzy/ign module and can use most of your belt drive items. (although there are some details to watch for, of course, esp with the 5.9)
Add a mild cam to those engines and you can reach 300-325hp easily - and be totally swapped and running within 2 weeks - a Hemi will surely take longer.

IMHO -
A mildly-tweaked 5.2 Magnum would be the simplest swap, and even an unmodified one would add 100hp over a standard 2-barrel LA 318.
With 3.23 gears it would be a really nice driver with some speed and gas mileage.
And weighs about 100lbs less than a bigblock, which helps in everything (speed, handling, braking, mpg).
Only issue nowadays might be finding a good engine to use (unless you want to rebuild, or buy a reman engine).

What is the difference between 516 and 915 heads?

 

[fury fan]

516 have smaller ports and valves (1.60" exh), closed chamber
915 (the first HP/Magnum head, I suppose) has larger ports and valves, closed chambers (the std 440 got 915s with a 1.60 exh valve, the HP got a 1.74 valve)
Of course, then the 906 got open chambers, larger valves, and went on every 383 and 440 regardless of hp rating.

It's all kinda fuzzy as for capability - the 66 440 TNT used 516 heads (365hp) as did the 413HP (360hp), both with log manifolds and smaller AFB carbs, while the 67 TNT with larger exh valves, bigger cam, taller intake manifold with larger AVS carb, and HP exh manifolds gained only 10hp over the '66 TNT. That's all on paper, though.