361 is always a BB engine. 413 engine is always an RB. Pretty much a completely different engine for purposes of your swap. 413 sits taller and wider than the 361. Neither industrial engine is really appropriate for an automotive swap.
Dave
361 instead of 383? Drop in replacement?
- Thread starter Metalmarty
- Start date
361 is always a BB engine. 413 engine is always an RB. Pretty much a completely different engine for purposes of your swap. 413 sits taller and wider than the 361. Neither industrial engine is really appropriate for an automotive swap.
Dave
57fury440
Well-Known Member
What Big John said is good advice. Let us know what you were told your 383 needs to have done. Maybe some is not necessary.
You forgot "Option 3"! Don't spend anything except to maintain the useability of the current engine in the car. That, by itself, will help you save money quicker than the stop-gap options which have already been mentioned.
I understand wanting to "do something", but sometimes, that "do something" can result in more ultimate money being spent for little gain. Plus any money being saved by these options will surely diminish when unforseen items might surface, plus by that time, the "point of no return" in the situation will have been passed, so no options other than to continue on that paraticular path.
Here's ONE big thing about a "simple" crank swap. I suspect the industrial pistons could well have a different weight than the stock-crank's pistons. Which can relate to how much balance weight has been removed from the crank counterweights, at the factory. End result, that simple crank swap, even with a good adapter-flexplate, could end up with a vibrating mess of a motor. Of course, that could be remedied by balancing the proposed rotating assembly . . . which will mean disassembling the 361 Industrial motor to get that done. More time/money involved!
As much as you might want to use Option 2 with "the swap", I vote for Option 3.
As always, your money, your time, your dreams . . .
Enjoy!
CBODY67
I understand wanting to "do something", but sometimes, that "do something" can result in more ultimate money being spent for little gain. Plus any money being saved by these options will surely diminish when unforseen items might surface, plus by that time, the "point of no return" in the situation will have been passed, so no options other than to continue on that paraticular path.
Here's ONE big thing about a "simple" crank swap. I suspect the industrial pistons could well have a different weight than the stock-crank's pistons. Which can relate to how much balance weight has been removed from the crank counterweights, at the factory. End result, that simple crank swap, even with a good adapter-flexplate, could end up with a vibrating mess of a motor. Of course, that could be remedied by balancing the proposed rotating assembly . . . which will mean disassembling the 361 Industrial motor to get that done. More time/money involved!
As much as you might want to use Option 2 with "the swap", I vote for Option 3.
As always, your money, your time, your dreams . . .
Enjoy!
CBODY67
Metalmarty
Member
@Big_John @CBODY67 @57fury440
About "Option 3: What's the minimum your current engine needs to run"
That was the first option I have explored.
(To be more clear, option 2 was always supposed to be a temporary option just for a couple 1000 miles while rebuiling my engine)
I can give a short rundown of current engine issues and prices to give a bit more insight.
I've touched the subject with a lot of pictures in 1968 Newport 4dr Hardtop restore (NL) but I will explain it here a bit further.
Might have been better if I did that earlier in this topic.
The 383 has done around 100k miles. Never opened or rebuild before and is worn pretty bad.
I'm also pretty sure it ran without oil at some point.
Current engine issues:
- Removed the oil pan, found 1/4" of sludge, metal fragments and a lot of bearing material
- Oil pickup was full of debris
- Crankshaft main bearings are shot, has big grooves and is 4 thou underside just by wear
- Crankshaft big end bearings are damaged
- Oilpump has big wearmarks on the rotor and cam and is not reusable
- Cylinders have 8-10thou taper with a big ring ridge (simply rering job is not possible anymore, wear is too big)
- Camshaft bearings are damaged
- Some camshaft lobes are worn.
- Lifters have seen better days
I've been in contact with different engine machinists past couple of months and found a machine shop I like with really decent prices.
Prices of the machineshop are (incl 21% VAT):
- Hottank and ultrasonic cleaning of the engine block : 120eu
- 8 cyl bore and hone: 400eu
- Decking block: 130eu
- Linebore: 210eu
- Crankshaft grinding and polishing 0.010" undersize: 345eu
- Crankshaft balancing with bob weights: 225eu
- Swap pressfit pistons: 100eu
So only shortblock machining is 1530eu = $1800USD
I've got quotations of different machineshops, doesn't get much cheaper than this.
Also, buying another crank is way more expensive.
The machineshop will only prepare the shortblock. I will build/assemble the engine myself.
Prices of mandatory components are (incl 21% VAT):
Remember most of the components have to come from the US and are way more expensive to buy here or when I receive them after paying for shipping, taxes, duties etc...
- KB-400 Pistons 0.030" overbore and rings: 600eu
- Howards cam and lifters: 310eu
- Howards springs and retainers: 150eu
- Clevite main bearings 120eu
- Clevite rod bearings 120eu
- Clevite cam bearings 35eu
- Cloyes timing kit 100eu
- Melling oilpump 130eu
- Melling pickup 35eu
- Mahle strengthend oilpump drive 60eu (originals do break sometimes)
- Felpro engine gasket kit 60eu
- Headbolt kit 75eu
- Freezeplugs and other misc 35eu
Optional:
- ARP main studs 60eu
- Waterpumphousing 170eu
All components together is 2060eu = $2400USD
Machined shortblock and components are $4200USD, the heads might need some more work and I'm pretty sure I'm overlooking some small stuff too.
To be honest.
I don't see a lot of stuff I can really scrap off the list.
Might be able to shave 200-300eu. But if I spend 4 grand on a block I might as well do it right.
I hope this gives everyone some more indept information about my engine issue.
If I'm completly wrong, please let me know, but this was my conclusion after lots of hours of calling and searching.
Thanks for looking at different options.
I agree and that's why I'm here, to see what the best options are for my situation.
I haven't seen and heard the engine yet. I wanted to check over here first if it was an option at all before driving 2.5hours single trip to see that nothing fits.
I was mainly searching for the option to get a ~500usd used shortblock which I can use with my own heads and accesories for a couple 1000miles or so while building my 383 shortblock. Unfortunately mopar big blocks are rare over here.
About "Option 3: What's the minimum your current engine needs to run"
That was the first option I have explored.
(To be more clear, option 2 was always supposed to be a temporary option just for a couple 1000 miles while rebuiling my engine)
I can give a short rundown of current engine issues and prices to give a bit more insight.
I've touched the subject with a lot of pictures in 1968 Newport 4dr Hardtop restore (NL) but I will explain it here a bit further.
Might have been better if I did that earlier in this topic.
The 383 has done around 100k miles. Never opened or rebuild before and is worn pretty bad.
I'm also pretty sure it ran without oil at some point.
Current engine issues:
- Removed the oil pan, found 1/4" of sludge, metal fragments and a lot of bearing material
- Oil pickup was full of debris
- Crankshaft main bearings are shot, has big grooves and is 4 thou underside just by wear
- Crankshaft big end bearings are damaged
- Oilpump has big wearmarks on the rotor and cam and is not reusable
- Cylinders have 8-10thou taper with a big ring ridge (simply rering job is not possible anymore, wear is too big)
- Camshaft bearings are damaged
- Some camshaft lobes are worn.
- Lifters have seen better days
I've been in contact with different engine machinists past couple of months and found a machine shop I like with really decent prices.
Prices of the machineshop are (incl 21% VAT):
- Hottank and ultrasonic cleaning of the engine block : 120eu
- 8 cyl bore and hone: 400eu
- Decking block: 130eu
- Linebore: 210eu
- Crankshaft grinding and polishing 0.010" undersize: 345eu
- Crankshaft balancing with bob weights: 225eu
- Swap pressfit pistons: 100eu
So only shortblock machining is 1530eu = $1800USD
I've got quotations of different machineshops, doesn't get much cheaper than this.
Also, buying another crank is way more expensive.
The machineshop will only prepare the shortblock. I will build/assemble the engine myself.
Prices of mandatory components are (incl 21% VAT):
Remember most of the components have to come from the US and are way more expensive to buy here or when I receive them after paying for shipping, taxes, duties etc...
- KB-400 Pistons 0.030" overbore and rings: 600eu
- Howards cam and lifters: 310eu
- Howards springs and retainers: 150eu
- Clevite main bearings 120eu
- Clevite rod bearings 120eu
- Clevite cam bearings 35eu
- Cloyes timing kit 100eu
- Melling oilpump 130eu
- Melling pickup 35eu
- Mahle strengthend oilpump drive 60eu (originals do break sometimes)
- Felpro engine gasket kit 60eu
- Headbolt kit 75eu
- Freezeplugs and other misc 35eu
Optional:
- ARP main studs 60eu
- Waterpumphousing 170eu
All components together is 2060eu = $2400USD
Machined shortblock and components are $4200USD, the heads might need some more work and I'm pretty sure I'm overlooking some small stuff too.
To be honest.
I don't see a lot of stuff I can really scrap off the list.
Might be able to shave 200-300eu. But if I spend 4 grand on a block I might as well do it right.
I hope this gives everyone some more indept information about my engine issue.
If I'm completly wrong, please let me know, but this was my conclusion after lots of hours of calling and searching.
Thanks for looking at different options.
I agree and that's why I'm here, to see what the best options are for my situation.
I haven't seen and heard the engine yet. I wanted to check over here first if it was an option at all before driving 2.5hours single trip to see that nothing fits.
I was mainly searching for the option to get a ~500usd used shortblock which I can use with my own heads and accesories for a couple 1000miles or so while building my 383 shortblock. Unfortunately mopar big blocks are rare over here.
I wasn't following the build, so I didn't see what was going on.
If you hadn't taken the engine completely apart, maybe you could have rolled some new bearings in as a temporary fix. At this stage though, I don't see anything on there that I would compromise on. That's the problem is once you take things apart, it gets expensive to put it back together the right way.
Although I don't see a need for a new waterpump housing just to nitpick your list. New pump, yea... New housing, no. I wouldn't bother with main studs either. The main bolts are just fine. Reuse the cylinder head bolts too.
I don't see anything budgeted for head work. If the shortblock is that worn, the heads are too.
FWIW, the $500 used and running 383 don't grow on trees here in the northeast US either.
Here's the way I'm looking at this....
I think you said $700 for the engine. Transferring the usable pieces from your engine is going to cost you some cash. Let's say $100 for a gasket set. $100 for an oil pump. Throw another $100 for miscellaneous bits and you are at $1000... Or about 20% of your budget for a fresh engine! And that's a gamble that the new engine is any better than your old one.
I'm understanding the idea of finding another engine. It makes some sense and quite frankly, at this stage of the game, finding a good running used engine as a replacement and shelving the rebuild for another day (or year LOL) would make even more sense. I just really think that this particular engine isn't what you want or need. It's going to set you back instead of pushing you ahead.
I get that it's tough to find this stuff over there. I wouldn't be able to find an engine for a DAF anywhere around here. It's just this isn't the right one no matter what. If you needed a replacement block, then yea, this might be the piece, but that's it.
Thanks for the information. I, like Big John, had not been following your other thread.
ONLY 100K miles? My '66 Newport (and my other Chrysler 383s) have well over 100K miles and they are still together and running fine. Only issue might be a bit more oil use than they used to. But they also needed a valve job by 80K miles (on #7 cyl) and have received new timing changs along the way, too. Still, no issues with the short block.
I understand your concerns about what was in the oil pan, BUT other than the sludge, there is no indication about where they came from or when they got there. Could have been there from its initial build, especially if where they came from was not evident upon tear down. At the point you removed the oil pan, if there were no noises in the engine, you could have just cleaned things up, including the oil pickup, put on a new gasket, then put it back together.
On the issue of the shot bearings. You see wear and grooves. The real issue should be "How much bearing clearance, via plastigage?" Those grooves might mean "less flat bearing interface surface", but if they match grooves in the bearing shells, then that's more load-bearing surface, just not flat, plus additional oil capacity.
Other wear areas mentioned, just because they look worn doesn't mean the engine will not run reasonably well for a while longer. End result, what you're terming "shot" is really just normal wear. Certainly, it might have been a bit less if it had had more oil and filter changes, but if it was still running quietly, or even with a little piston noise upon initial start-up, but no bearing-related knocks, with "some" oil pressure, it was still useable as it was.
Cylinder wall taper, that is normal too.
Now, I fully understand your perceived "alarm" at what you found. A normal reaction. Plus the desire to make it all "right and better" again. All normal reactions. But as long as the oil pump can pump some oil (even if the pressure is low), no unusual noises, and the fuel and electrical systems on the engine still work reliably, you might be surprised at how "out of spec" an engine might be and still work well enough to maintain vehicle useability.
Is the car your only means of trransportation? Just curious.
Obviously, "Option 3" is not going to work at this point, with the 383 already taken apart. BUT trying to adapt an engine that might be from the same basic engine family ("B" in this case, low block), even temporarily, can have many expensive time/money pitfalls. Especially if it is desired to "just drop in". I'm also sensitve to your sourcing issues, over there, plus the "expense" issues too. But, over the years, I've also seen several "drop in deals" turn into something much more expensive than initially suspected. End result, all things considered, my recommendation would be to just rebuild the 383 and be done with it. NO temporary engines, which will also generate disposal-when-done issues, even it it might be re-sold later. That's just me.
The temporary engine might buy you some time, making the rebuild process less time-sensitive, but at what total cost? How much "use time" would you save with that situation, too? Just for grins, you might check with some of the car rental firms to inquire as to what a 1 month rental/lease might cost, then compare that to what the temporary engine might well end up costing, for comparison. Which might be funded via credit card? Provided you meet their criteria for a rental customer (there are some).
So, at this point, it seems that with the engine already apart, the only option is to continue with the rebuild. I'll concur that what's on the list, operation-wise, looks good. I concur with using existing "good bolts/fastenera" rather than studs. There is a reason for the studs, when needed, but not necessarily with a basic stock rebuild. On a block that is generally "substantial", as the B/RB Chryslers were, rather than on a "light-weight" race engine block, the studs are not really needed. Their "enhancements" will be more insignificant.
End result, the temporary engine can be more of a "complication" than a real "solution".
Your money, your dreams.
Have fun,
CBODY67
ONLY 100K miles? My '66 Newport (and my other Chrysler 383s) have well over 100K miles and they are still together and running fine. Only issue might be a bit more oil use than they used to. But they also needed a valve job by 80K miles (on #7 cyl) and have received new timing changs along the way, too. Still, no issues with the short block.
I understand your concerns about what was in the oil pan, BUT other than the sludge, there is no indication about where they came from or when they got there. Could have been there from its initial build, especially if where they came from was not evident upon tear down. At the point you removed the oil pan, if there were no noises in the engine, you could have just cleaned things up, including the oil pickup, put on a new gasket, then put it back together.
On the issue of the shot bearings. You see wear and grooves. The real issue should be "How much bearing clearance, via plastigage?" Those grooves might mean "less flat bearing interface surface", but if they match grooves in the bearing shells, then that's more load-bearing surface, just not flat, plus additional oil capacity.
Other wear areas mentioned, just because they look worn doesn't mean the engine will not run reasonably well for a while longer. End result, what you're terming "shot" is really just normal wear. Certainly, it might have been a bit less if it had had more oil and filter changes, but if it was still running quietly, or even with a little piston noise upon initial start-up, but no bearing-related knocks, with "some" oil pressure, it was still useable as it was.
Cylinder wall taper, that is normal too.
Now, I fully understand your perceived "alarm" at what you found. A normal reaction. Plus the desire to make it all "right and better" again. All normal reactions. But as long as the oil pump can pump some oil (even if the pressure is low), no unusual noises, and the fuel and electrical systems on the engine still work reliably, you might be surprised at how "out of spec" an engine might be and still work well enough to maintain vehicle useability.
Is the car your only means of trransportation? Just curious.
Obviously, "Option 3" is not going to work at this point, with the 383 already taken apart. BUT trying to adapt an engine that might be from the same basic engine family ("B" in this case, low block), even temporarily, can have many expensive time/money pitfalls. Especially if it is desired to "just drop in". I'm also sensitve to your sourcing issues, over there, plus the "expense" issues too. But, over the years, I've also seen several "drop in deals" turn into something much more expensive than initially suspected. End result, all things considered, my recommendation would be to just rebuild the 383 and be done with it. NO temporary engines, which will also generate disposal-when-done issues, even it it might be re-sold later. That's just me.
The temporary engine might buy you some time, making the rebuild process less time-sensitive, but at what total cost? How much "use time" would you save with that situation, too? Just for grins, you might check with some of the car rental firms to inquire as to what a 1 month rental/lease might cost, then compare that to what the temporary engine might well end up costing, for comparison. Which might be funded via credit card? Provided you meet their criteria for a rental customer (there are some).
So, at this point, it seems that with the engine already apart, the only option is to continue with the rebuild. I'll concur that what's on the list, operation-wise, looks good. I concur with using existing "good bolts/fastenera" rather than studs. There is a reason for the studs, when needed, but not necessarily with a basic stock rebuild. On a block that is generally "substantial", as the B/RB Chryslers were, rather than on a "light-weight" race engine block, the studs are not really needed. Their "enhancements" will be more insignificant.
End result, the temporary engine can be more of a "complication" than a real "solution".
Your money, your dreams.
Have fun,
CBODY67
Metalmarty
Member
Thanks again for the input John.
Headwork isn't budgeted yet no. The heads have been reworked in the past.
I haven't gotten around to disassemble them yet to asses them.
I get what your saying. If I can find a 383 shortblock thats really drop-in, it might be worth the effort depending on the price. With the 361, not so much.
I might just wait until a cheap 383 shortblock surfaces. If not, wait until my 383 is finished.
I've included some pictures on the bottom of this post to show the damage.
I think that the engine was just shy of spun bearings... The front cam bearing was missing chunks of bearing material. And more.
I fear that I would have destructed the engine beyond repair if I continued using it.
Also thanks.
To answer your question on the bearing clearance.
I've measured the crank with a micrometer (and the bores with a dialbore gauge).
The crank measured 2.6247" (which is within new spec) on a "decent-ish" main bearing and 2.6209" on one of the bad main bearings. The noted max clearance is 0.0025" and the crank has a undersize bearing of 0.004". The main bearings are also worn different undersizes.
A little cylinder taper is normal indeed. But 0.010" taper is a lot...
No the Chrysler is not my only form of transport fortunately.
My daily driver is a 2000 Subaru Outback (mechanically rebuild).
And my other fun driver is a 1972 Super beetle which is fully restored and hopped up with a 1.9L/100hp (instead of stock 1.6L/50hp).
I've done all the work on both cars myself with some mechanical help/tips from my father.
Some pictures of the engine.
Measured crankshaft with micrometer after removal. Bearing #4 is 0.004" undersize because of wear. Other bearings aren't much better.
The bearing is all warped. It sits so loose in the cap that you can look through it.
This was all residing in the pickup. All chunks of metal.
Metalmarty
Member
As added note.
@Davea Lux sharp eye.
I was curious and got in contact with the owner of the industrial engine since you've noticed the RB stamping pad.
Turns out its a 1963 RB 413CI engine.
I informed the owner so he knows and can edit the listing.
@Davea Lux sharp eye.
I was curious and got in contact with the owner of the industrial engine since you've noticed the RB stamping pad.
Turns out its a 1963 RB 413CI engine.
I informed the owner so he knows and can edit the listing.
SGT FURY
Senior Member
twostick
Senior Member
The block.
The crank in addition to being 8 bolt which isn't a deal breaker, is I believe, longer than a passenger car crank.
Kevin
70bigblockdodge
Old Man with a Hat
Use King bearings, Clevite is getting way too pricey for bearings they have been making for 50 years. IMO.
You can get King engine bearing from Summit/Jegs, and other supply houses. About half the cost of Clevite regular bearings and they are anti friction coated, win-win.
You can get King engine bearing from Summit/Jegs, and other supply houses. About half the cost of Clevite regular bearings and they are anti friction coated, win-win.
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