440 Stroker Assembly Ideas

[65Fury440]

Sure would be nice if TTI would make some 2" primary headers for those of us who need them.
I bought a set of Doug's coated D452s and cut them up. Ouch.
Edit- I have a set of Hedman long tubes that come off my 65. They fit really well, I wish they had a model number on them somewhere as the question always comes up.

 

[mikedrini]

Sure would be nice if TTI would make some 2" primary headers for those of us who need them.
I bought a set of Doug's coated D452s and cut them up. Ouch.

That's the thought in the back of my mind, the fit. I feel like that's inevitable with these shorty's. Ultimately still cheaper than custom heads I am guessing, but still hate to cut up new parts.

 

[65Fury440]

Yea ended up wrapping the right side around the torsion bar, moved 3 out of 4 tubes.
After I paid a fab guy to do it, ended up being about $1400 headers. And I haven't had them recoated yet, probably never will.
I used the Eastwood inside coat, it seemed to help with heat.

 

[mikedrini]

Yea ended up wrapping the right side around the torsion bar, moved 3 out of 4 tubes.
After I paid a fab guy to do it, ended up being about $1400 headers. And I haven't had them recoated yet, probably never will.
I used the Eastwood inside coat, it seemed to help with heat.

That's good to know, thanks. I wonder how that price would compare to a custom job from scratch? Obviously would very shop to shop depending on rates, but I am thinking it would be right around $1400, no?

 

[65Fury440]

Man I dunno. The shop I use gives me $80 per hour rate.
I brought some U bends to use, so just the labor to re-run my tubes was 8 hours,that was with me taking the headers and torsion bar on and off for test fitting.
So $640 with a tip was $700.
I would think once you buy the flanges and tubes I would think more.
Once take the car there, get it set up,start measuring and cutting, you could be into a header job for 24 or more hours, plus parts. There is so much mock up time.
I considered doing it myself, but, the guy that builds race cars his whole life wasted a lot less material than I would have. Plus his welds didn't leak at all. His welds look so nice there was hardly any dressing the welds at all.
I would have burned through a couple grinders and a couple dozen discs.

 

[mikedrini]

Man I dunno. The shop I use gives me $80 per hour rate.
I brought some U bends to use, so just the labor to re-run my tubes was 8 hours,that was with me taking the headers and torsion bar on and off for test fitting.
So $640 with a tip was $700.
I would think once you buy the flanges and tubes I would think more.
Once take the car there, get it set up,start measuring and cutting, you could be into a header job for 24 or more hours, plus parts. There is so much mock up time.
I considered doing it myself, but, the guy that builds race cars his whole life wasted a lot less material than I would have. Plus his welds didn't leak at all. His welds look so nice there was hardly any dressing the welds at all.
I would have burned through a couple grinders and a couple dozen discs.

HAHA, good point there. I would probably be in the same boat with my MIG.

 

[Turboomni]

Finally spoke to Mr Dwane Porter as many of you have such high regards for him and his work.
Very interesting and I am frankly sold. Right of the bat I said "I will be using HP manifolds." He asked about my car and setup and what I want from the car. Here is what he proposed. Stealth heads he says from his experience need a bit of port work but nothing extensive. He would like to put what he prefers for valve springs and everything else to run a roller cam. As far as cam goes he would go with a custom grind of his specs which would be a variation on the Comp Cams HR 286 hr but with a wider lobe separation. He said he has very good luck with this in my application with a stroker and manifolds. I voiced my concerns about Comp hydraulic roller lifter problems . He said we could use Morel hydraulic roller lifters.
He then told me to look up "Hydraulic roller lifter noise" on the internet. The reason he says that many think they will be perfectly silent in operation. "Some will be louder than others but just so you know what your getting into."
I asked if using HP manifolds is a weird request on a stroker build. He said it is becoming very popular to do so for the street and he has set up quite a few especially for the racing classes like FuryGT is in.
I was impressed with him and will most likely go with him for the whole top end.

 

[mikedrini]

Finally spoke to Mr Dwane Porter as many of you have such high regards for him and his work.
Very interesting and I am frankly sold. Right of the bat I said "I will be using HP manifolds." He asked about my car and setup and what I want from the car. Here is what he proposed. Stealth heads he says from his experience need a bit of port work but nothing extensive. He would like to put what he prefers for valve springs and everything else to run a roller cam. As far as cam goes he would go with a custom grind of his specs which would be a variation on the Comp Cams HR 286 hr but with a wider lobe separation. He said he has very good luck with this in my application with a stroker and manifolds. I voiced my concerns about Comp hydraulic roller lifter problems . He said we could use Morel hydraulic roller lifters.
He then told me to look up "Hydraulic roller lifter noise" on the internet. The reason he says that many think they will be perfectly silent in operation. "Some will be louder than others but just so you know what your getting into."
I asked if using HP manifolds is a weird request on a stroker build. He said it is becoming very popular to do so for the street and he has set up quite a few especially for the racing classes like FuryGT is in.
I was impressed with him and will most likely go with him for the whole top end.

That's solid intel Turbo, maybe I can follow up with Mr. Porter as well. I know the internet tends to be pretty convenient, but it's hard to beat word of mouth.

 

[MEV]

Dave,

Like Cbody67, you are always a wealth of knowledge my friend, thanks. I actually just upgraded my radiator setup to the 26" this past winter, so check there. Was definitely getting the windage tray, HV oil pump, HV water pump and a higher torque converter. As far as exhaust, I am probably looking at custom headers (which I know will dent the ol pocket book).

I honestly had no idea about the issue with the roller cams, wow. I think you just talked me into going back to the flat tappet. I noticed Howard's Cams have pretty good prices and I haven't heard the hit or miss rep about them that Comp seems to have. Not sure if this is because many people use Comp?

Mike

You do not want to run a HV pump with the stock capacity oil pan, you want to run the high pressure, standard volume pump. The high volume pump can take oil out of the pan faster than it can return.

I would personally not run a flat tappet cam. If you knock a lobe off during break-in, the motor has to come back out. The rollers are expensive, but not having to worry about flattening the cam, and the increased performance more than make up for it.

 

[65Fury440]

You do not want to run a HV pump with the stock capacity oil pan, you want to run the high pressure, standard volume pump. The high volume pump can take oil out of the pan faster than it can return.

I would personally not run a flat tappet cam. If you knock a lobe off during break-in, the motor has to come back out. The rollers are expensive, but not having to worry about flattening the cam, and the increased performance more than make up for it.

I dunno how much more pressure you need over stock. MEV, what pressures do a high pressure pump run? I only ever used standard and high volume.

 

[MEV]

Dont know what stock pressure was, i only installed a gauge recently. I have 35 at idle warm with 10-40 mobil 1 high mileage oil.

 

[Turboomni]

I would personally not run a flat tappet cam. If you knock a lobe off during break-in, the motor has to come back out. The rollers are expensive, but not having to worry about flattening the cam, and the increased performance more than make up for it.

I asked Mr Porter if a roller cam is worth the hassle. He said yes in that the cam profile you can achieve with a roller will help a great deal in my situation over the tappet cam profile. I guess the ability to open it quickly and hold the valve wide open far longer in the same time span as the tappet cam is key. Also the fact the engine will never see really high rpms is a plus on parts lasting.

 

[bajajoaquin]

A little late to the party, but I’m not sure I buy the builder’s assertion that his car is going to “easily” make 600 lb-ft. There’s an article I’ve linked elsewhere about a 383 build with a roller cam, MP aluminum heads, Performer RPM intake, and dyno headers. That made torque at about 119%-120% of displacement. (A stock 440 is rated at 480 lb ft or about 110% of displacement.)

I’ve forgotten if this build is going to have TF heads, which might well make more power, but it’s going to have HP manifolds, right? Is an RPM going to fit under the hood, or will it be limited to a lower manifold? Both will make less torque than the combo listed above.

So if it does as well as the smaller engine with better breathing it may well get just to 600. If it has a regular Performer, HP manifolds, and a really well-chosen cam, I’d guess more like 580 or 590 lb ft.

Still plenty, and nothing to be disappointed about, but I don’t think it will be “easily” 600.

 

[Turboomni]

Well you maybe correct bajajoaquin as I am just the messenger. I will say what ever it ends up being I will hopefully notice a big difference over my 440 low compression all stock iron head engine that was installed in the 1980's. It does well and runs nicely. I bought another block for this build so I can keep driving her around. She's still a pleasure.
Reason for this post is I was on the phone to Mr Porter from Porter Racing Heads in VT. This guy is really on the ball as I was supposed to call him back on Monday after speaking to my machinist with Mr Porters recommendations. Spoke with my engine builder today and he liked what he heard and was a thumbs up from him. Call Mr Porter and he had done more research on my behalf with the compression ratios and different versions of the 440 Source bottom end. Anyway it has been settled. He is getting a Custom grind roller of his specs with Morel roller hydraulic lifters, porting stealth heads and setting them up for me. Threw it on a credit card on the phone and we are off to the races so to speak.

 

[bajajoaquin]

Sorry, didn’t mean to be insulting. And also, I could very well be wrong.

But however it works out, you’re doing it right by clearly identifying what you want, talking about it with a pro and going with his recommendation. You’re going to have an unbelievable engine in that car. No doubt about that.

 

[Turboomni]

Naw you weren't insulting. I guess the only way to prove anything is to put it on a dyno. Maybe if it is not up to par and I need more info.
But if my buttometer is happy I won't care what the number is.

 

[65Fury440]

Hey OP, ever decide on manifolds VS headers?

 

[mikedrini]

Hey OP, ever decide on manifolds VS headers?

Not yet, still have the manifolds ready to go. I think the headers will be one of the final decisions I make once I have the rest of the long block put together. After discussing it with some other guys, I think I might leave in my 2.74 rear gear too, given the amount of highway driving I do. It always sounds better in my head than out loud?

Either way, I know I'm looking at an upgrade to the 727 TF. I am going to post a pic of the short block 440 as well as my 383 (that's currently in the New Yorker) here in a bit and update it as I go. Definitely going to take awhile, unless someone knows which trees money grows on?

 

[moper]

I honestly had no idea about the issue with the roller cams, wow. I think you just talked me into going back to the flat tappet. I noticed Howard's Cams have pretty good prices and I haven't heard the hit or miss rep about them that Comp seems to have. Not sure if this is because many people use Comp?
Mike

That's because that problem doesn't exist in any high numbers. As Dwayne noted there are other choices if you're worried. Most issues with the hydraulic rollers are because of incorrect setup or unrealistic expectations. Personally I use flat tappets due to cost and potential complications. If you want a roller - go solid roller with lifter bore bushings, or stay flat tappet. that "600tq" figure is harder to reach, and no, dynos are not where you find that out. At least not unless the engine is equipped exactly as it will be in the chassis: air cleaner, full exhaust, belt driven water pump, engine driven fuel pump, etc. I will add in terms of Dwayne's work - I built a B wedge 496 that uses his camshaft and ported Stealths. It would make over 600 on a dyn, but in the car it only makes 580 or so...lol. On a flat tappet of his design. It made 530 IIRC with the factory exhaust manifolds and stock repro exhaust (E body). So trust what he says, and do what he suggests.

 

[Turboomni]

Yes I am in Mr Porter's hands. Got a pair of Stealths being shipped to him as we speak that he will do some port work on and setup for his roller grind. Slowly but surely it will get.done.