66 New Yorker 440 - what do you hear?

[Luke Pokrajac]

One -- The sound is OUTSIDE of the engine internals, as mentioned.
Two -- A High Volume oil pump will NOT increase oil pressure that much. Putting the high pressure spring IN the pump will. Even with a stock pump, the spring can be shimmed a bit to increase oil pressure. No real harm in that, but might take a few more horsepower to run the pump. Generally, not an issue. Reasonably easy to change, if desired, as the oil pump is external to the engine block.
Three -- A flat cam will cause other performance issues than those displayed.
Four -- The trans leak could well be the seal the torque converter slides into, on the front pump. A hard, aged, seal might not like the way it was done. Will require transmission removal to fix. Really not unusual on an older car.

At the present time, the worst thing I see is the transmission leak AND where it is coming from. There are a few likely candidate areas other than what's been mentioned. None hard to fix, just more time and money. Key thing is that the transmission operates normally!

IF you are not comfortable with the seller's information, find another car, period. YOU have to be comfortable with the purchase. There can be NO real advantage to getting into the Chrysler side of the vintage car hobby with a 440-engined car. A Fury III 318 car can be just as good, for example. Or a Newport 383 2bbl, for that matter. There were several Fury III 318 cars at the recent Mecum auctions, for example. Some under-appreciated cars in the C-body realm of things. Might not get the "OOOs" and "Ahhhhs" a 440 might, but still good cars to enjoy driving and being seen in. It was mentioned decades ago, that "simpler" cars usually don't have as many options to cause issues as the cars age. Things like power windows, power seats, power antennas, which higher trim level cars can usually have. BTAIM

From looking at the auction results from the more recent Mecum auctions, it appears that their selling prices are softening and flattening some. Which can be good for the buyers! You can do a free registration at www.mecum.com to get that information and keep up with those numbers. Facebook Marketplace can be a decent place to find cars, BUT many are just "used cars" and the prices tend to be higher than what I consider "normal", in many cases.

In the mean time, please understand that Chryslers of the "Slab" orientation ('65 to '68) are some of the best designed cars on the road, then and now. The bodies are very strong and solid, but rust can still happen over time. The powertrains were at least as good as anything Ford and GM did back then. Those general model years were when ALL of the OEMs had finessed their earlier engineering to be more bullet-proff and long-lived, so it can be a "sweet spot" of sorts for all of them, but the Chrysler products (IF opotioned correctly) were generally the best, from what I saw back then and us having a '66 Newport Town Sedan I took to college and drove after that. We bought it at its 1yr birthday and 7100 miles. With ultimately over 150k miles and very little mechanical work needing to be done (and, its OEM-production ball joints). From day one, it was a cherished member of the family, but not "ocer-maintained" either. It just worked.

ONE observation, it is much easier to find somebody to work on Chrysler products than it is for similar Ford and GM products. KNOWING the engineering and WHY it is better than what others did is the key. There CAN be many similarities, but the "fix" in non-similar areas can flumox some otherwise-good mechanics. Back then, the cars were NOT "generic", as each OEM had their own orientations and goals to hit for what they wanted the cars to be. Like a good GM mechanic is "lost" on any other brand of car. Some good Chrysler products have been scrapped due to these things!

Personally, I prefer the Dodge and Chrysler brands of that era. Plymouths, as good as they can be with nicely-optiioned cars, tended to be a bit less robust in some areas, but still with the general "Chrysler Corp goodness" of design and execution, which made them such good used car values, back then.

In your learning, find Chryslers you can TOUCH, FEEL, Drive, and experience. Even if you might need to drive a bit to do that. "Education" and appreciation are important! You might discover that staying with Ford and GM is where you feel best. You might also discover how much better the Chrysler products could be, too! They ALL feel different (some better, some worse) in many ways. NOTHING generic, especially back then.

Just some thoughts and observations.
Enjoy!
CBODY67

I ALWAYS enjoy reading your responses C-body!!!

 

[volksworld]

If it was in front of me I'd pull all the belts and run it briefly...that will eliminate all accessory noises and let you hear the engine itself...I agree that thing sounds like a cement mixer

 

[martymopar]

Engine looks like it runs smooth and gas in it may be 10 years old.

Is gas the same aged wine?

If not I would be peeing in my pants running old gas.

Speaking of old gas I seem to be full of it but that is not part of the problem with the car.

Capt. "Toots" Pickleburst ret. deceased

 

[Cadillacdave]

Thank you for your observations and suggestions. I agree the Fury IIIs are very nice. My preference leans toward the big C body cars. A big block would be nice, but I wouldn't exclude a clean car with a 318. I definitely agree that putting eyes on a car and driving it is very helpful. However, as many of these cars are scattered about, its sometimes difficult to do that. I have had surprisngly good luck with putchasing many cars online. I am fairly thorough and know the GMs and Fords very well. The key is to get a nice car at a good price, with work that I can do or get done.

Thank you for your insight and assistance!

 

[Cadillacdave]

If it was in front of me I'd pull all the belts and run it briefly...that will eliminate all accessory noises and let you hear the engine itself...I agree that thing sounds like a cement mixer

I agree with that. First thing I would do is pull the belts and isolate the noise. Maybe its the pump as several here have suggested. Anything can be fixed, but I wouldnt want to buy a car with a rebuilt motor - and have to rebuild it. I dont mind about the transmission repair or the brakes. Its the front pump seal leaking and fairly easy to fix.

 

[Big_John]

Its the front pump seal leaking and fairly easy to fix.

There's a good chance it's not that seal. The selector shaft seal on the left side of the trans is usually the culprit. The fluid runs down the side and around the bellhousing so people think it's the front seal or pan gasket. Can be fixed in the car fairly easy.

 

[Cadillacdave]

Good observation! Thank you for that insight.

 

[Gerald Morris]

For the right price, I'd snap it up. Nothing wrong there that can't be fixed easily. Of course, should our OP snap it up, and grow frustrated, he would be welcome to inflict the disappointing machine on the Morris Clan. I would suffer the presence of another '66 C body, to atone for my sins of course!

 

[Gerald Morris]

One -- The sound is OUTSIDE of the engine internals, as mentioned.
Two -- A High Volume oil pump will NOT increase oil pressure that much. Putting the high pressure spring IN the pump will. Even with a stock pump, the spring can be shimmed a bit to increase oil pressure. No real harm in that, but might take a few more horsepower to run the pump. Generally, not an issue. Reasonably easy to change, if desired, as the oil pump is external to the engine block.

....
In your learning, find Chryslers you can TOUCH, FEEL, Drive, and experience. Even if you might need to drive a bit to do that. "Education" and appreciation are important! You might discover that staying with Ford and GM is where you feel best. You might also discover how much better the Chrysler products could be, too! They ALL feel different (some better, some worse) in many ways. NOTHING generic, especially back then.

Just some thoughts and observations.
Enjoy!
CBODY67

The "scales fell from my eyes" in 2003, when I bought a '66 New Yorker for $500. That purchase made a Dedicated Moparian of me very quickly. The superior design, and VASTLY SUPERIOR DOCUMENTATION, did The Trick for me. I won't buy any technology with hidden stuff lurking in it. I run my own home-rolled GNU-Linux systems on the Morris Network, and drive only Old Mopars, as the documentation quality went down during the 1980s, though it was still MUCH better than The Other Guys. Even when I HAD money, I preferred working on my vehicles, and house for that matter.

 

[Cadillacdave]

For the right price, I'd snap it up. Nothing wrong there that can't be fixed easily. Of course, should our OP snap it up, and grow frustrated, he would be welcome to inflict the disappointing machine on the Morris Clan. I would suffer the presence of another '66 C body, to atone for my sins of course!

It does seem like a good buy, but.... The owner is a car guy and knowledgeable etc. He was honest about the transmission leak and brake issues. My concern with the noise from the engine is that when I asked him if anyone ever looked into what the problem is - his response "it is what it is." A car guy would want to fix whatever that noise/ticking is, especially if it's as simple as a belt or power steering pump.

Also the fact that he went through the trouble and expense to rebuild the engine and then not drive it, is suspicious. He put 1500 miles on it and parked it. He said the brakes were bad. So why not fix the simple brake issue - a brake line broke while he was replacing a wheel cylinder.

I asked for pictures in the trunk. It looked like a patch was welded in even though the car wasn't rusty. I asked him if a patch had been welded into trunk pan and he said no, it was seam sealer. I noticed that the tail lights were from a Newport and not a New Yorker. So I asked if the car had been in an accident and hit in the rear. He danced around the issue, before finally saying it could have been but he wasn't sure. Then asked about the patch again - maybe the trunk floor buckled in an accident, was cut out and a 4 inch x12 inch patch welded in. His response - yes that's possible. The car belonged to his father so he would likely be aware of the history. He's also a knowledgeable car guy but feigned ignorance on these issues. So just left me with a bit of hesitancy on the deal.

Same with the tail lights - said he knew nothing about it but maybe a body shop changed them out. So the lack of candor is a concern, mostly about the ticking or engine sounds because I asked him if he took it back to the machine shop and he said yes. So that would indicate that he knew there was a problem. He said shop was out of business a week after he picked car up. Sounds suspicious to me. So I asked if he ever followed up on the sound with any other mechanic and he wouldn't answer. So although the car looks good, there may be some hidden issues with the ticking, which is why I asked the very experienced group here. I'm certain I could detect the problem in person but by video it's difficult. I have heard these original cars run and they run smooth and quiet when in good shape. I have seen a lot of rebuilds go bad - rings in upside down, tolerances off, crank scrapers hitting crankshaft. All machine shops are not created equal. So my preference is a stock original motor. My skill is bringing those back to life and getting them to run really well, even if I buy them not running. But this engine concerns me. Maybe I'm over thinking it? Most here believed it was the power steering pump and/or belt.

 

[CBODY67]

thanks for the additional information.

IF te car got hit in the rear, MORE than the trunk floor would have been bent, I suspect. Which menas there should be evidence of metal repairs elsewhere, too, under neath.

The Newport tail light assys might mean it was produced for the Canadian market? IF the tail lights were a part of a larger repair, they were probably sourced from a Newport in the salvage yard.

IF the father was not living in the same house as the seller, it IS possible his father had some things done the son was not fully aware of, but happened, by observation. FWIW

I tend to concur about the engine sound getting "a free ride" of sorts, but other things were fixed. Does seem a bit strange, but if he was going to have to pay somebody else to fix the noise, then "it is what it is".

The brakes on those cars, when to OEM spec (even used) are very good No reason for them to not be good, by observation.

IF the car is really what you want and can buy it "right", plus planning on about $1500.00 in getting the brakes and transmission leaks attended to, plus a little bit for somebody to diagnose the engine noise . . . and it all fits into your budget. Your decision past that.

One emerging-flaky issue about Slabs is that they have 14" wheels and tires on them. At some time, it can be needed to upgrade to 15" wheels and tires. Another expense to plan for . . .

Take care,
CBODY67

 

[Gerald Morris]

It does seem like a good buy, but.... The owner is a car guy and knowledgeable etc. He was honest about the transmission leak and brake issues. My concern with the noise from the engine is that when I asked him if anyone ever looked into what the problem is - his response "it is what it is." A car guy would want to fix whatever that noise/ticking is, especially if it's as simple as a belt or power steering pump.

Also the fact that he went through the trouble and expense to rebuild the engine and then not drive it, is suspicious. He put 1500 miles on it and parked it. He said the brakes were bad. So why not fix the simple brake issue - a brake line broke while he was replacing a wheel cylinder.

I asked for pictures in the trunk. It looked like a patch was welded in even though the car wasn't rusty. I asked him if a patch had been welded into trunk pan and he said no, it was seam sealer. I noticed that the tail lights were from a Newport and not a New Yorker. So I asked if the car had been in an accident and hit in the rear. He danced around the issue, before finally saying it could have been but he wasn't sure. Then asked about the patch again - maybe the trunk floor buckled in an accident, was cut out and a 4 inch x12 inch patch welded in. His response - yes that's possible. The car belonged to his father so he would likely be aware of the history. He's also a knowledgeable car guy but feigned ignorance on these issues. So just left me with a bit of hesitancy on the deal.

Same with the tail lights - said he knew nothing about it but maybe a body shop changed them out. So the lack of candor is a concern, mostly about the ticking or engine sounds because I asked him if he took it back to the machine shop and he said yes. So that would indicate that he knew there was a problem. He said shop was out of business a week after he picked car up. Sounds suspicious to me. So I asked if he ever followed up on the sound with any other mechanic and he wouldn't answer. So although the car looks good, there may be some hidden issues with the ticking, which is why I asked the very experienced group here. I'm certain I could detect the problem in person but by video it's difficult. I have heard these original cars run and they run smooth and quiet when in good shape. I have seen a lot of rebuilds go bad - rings in upside down, tolerances off, crank scrapers hitting crankshaft. All machine shops are not created equal. So my preference is a stock original motor. My skill is bringing those back to life and getting them to run really well, even if I buy them not running. But this engine concerns me. Maybe I'm over thinking it? Most here believed it was the power steering pump and/or belt.

Yeah, those Newport taillight bezels WERE obvious. Hmmm, I think I'd leave it alone, if he wants more than $1750. If the motor oil looks clean, AND the guy let's you do a quick compression check, it MIGHT be worth getting. Otherwise, NO! Sure as **** NO without a more rigorous check. Ye Auld sheetmetal punch into the frame tubes is a MUST here....

Truth be told, the engine noise sounds a LOT like our family 383, and we've happily run that engine for nigh 10 yrs now. My power steering belt polishes the waterpump pulley a bit too, but she runs GOOD and COOL for all that. The body of the '66 Newport the engine came in proved to be a rust bubble, albeit a PRETTY one, but the engine made the modest outlay WELL worth our while.

 

[Cadillacdave]

thanks for the additional information.

IF te car got hit in the rear, MORE than the trunk floor would have been bent, I suspect. Which menas there should be evidence of metal repairs elsewhere, too, under neath.

The Newport tail light assys might mean it was produced for the Canadian market? IF the tail lights were a part of a larger repair, they were probably sourced from a Newport in the salvage yard.

IF the father was not living in the same house as the seller, it IS possible his father had some things done the son was not fully aware of, but happened, by observation. FWIW

I tend to concur about the engine sound getting "a free ride" of sorts, but other things were fixed. Does seem a bit strange, but if he was going to have to pay somebody else to fix the noise, then "it is what it is".

The brakes on those cars, when to OEM spec (even used) are very good No reason for them to not be good, by observation.

IF the car is really what you want and can buy it "right", plus planning on about $1500.00 in getting the brakes and transmission leaks attended to, plus a little bit for somebody to diagnose the engine noise . . . and it all fits into your budget. Your decision past that.

One emerging-flaky issue about Slabs is that they have 14" wheels and tires on them. At some time, it can be needed to upgrade to 15" wheels and tires. Another expense to plan for . . .

Take care,
CBODY67

I can replace the brake line and do the repair myself as well as diagnose the ticking noise. I have a good transmission shop that can take care of that issue for a reasonable and fair price. I thought the same thing and had checked and most Canadian New Yorkers seem to have the correct tail lights. He did show some pics from underneath and it was rust free. But the guy is old and doesnt have a lift so the pics are limited. Must have been hit when it was fairly new. Car was repaired and driven a lot of miles, so most likely the repair is generally ok. Thank you for your suggestions and assistance!

 

[Gerald Morris]

I can replace the brake line and do the repair myself as well as diagnose the ticking noise. I have a good transmission shop that can take care of that issue for a reasonable and fair price. I thought the same thing and had checked and most Canadian New Yorkers seem to have the correct tail lights. He did show some pics from underneath and it was rust free. But the guy is old and doesnt have a lift so the pics are limited. Must have been hit when it was fairly new. Car was repaired and driven a lot of miles, so most likely the repair is generally ok.

It all comes down to If The Price is Right I reckon.

 

[Cadillacdave]

Yeah, those Newport taillight bezels WERE obvious. Hmmm, I think I'd leave it alone, if he wants more than $1750. If the motor oil looks clean, AND the guy let's you do a quick compression check, it MIGHT be worth getting. Otherwise, NO! Sure as **** NO without a more rigorous check. Ye Auld sheetmetal punch into the frame tubes is a MUST here....

Truth be told, the engine noise sounds a LOT like our family 383, and we've happily run that engine for nigh 10 yrs now. My power steering belt polishes the waterpump pulley a bit too, but she runs GOOD and COOL for all that. The body of the '66 Newport the engine came in proved to be a rust bubble, albeit a PRETTY one, but the engine made the modest outlay WELL worth our while.

Difficult to check compression or even the oil as I am not near the car. If I could see the car the decision would be much easier. Just trying to mitigate risk here. Thank you for the advice!

 

[3175375]

Difficult to check compression or even the oil as I am not near the car. If I could see the car the decision would be much easier. Just trying to mitigate risk here. Thank you for the advice!

Buy the car, get it home and tell us what is really the situation. We’re spending more time on this car than you are! ;^P

 

[Cadillacdave]

Buy the car, get it home and tell us what is really the situation. We’re spending more time on this car than you are! ;^P

Hahaha. That sounds like a plan!

 

[Scoopy G]

It's always seems to me that the sounds engines make are always distorted in videos. Someone will start and engine and comment on how good it sounds, but in the video it sounds like your NYer.

 

[Cadillacdave]

It's always seems to me that the sounds engines make are always distorted in videos. Someone will start and engine and comment on how good it sounds, but in the video it sounds like your NYer.

I will probably pass on it. The car is in Canada. $500 just to transport it to the border. $500-$800 for Customs paperwork. Then $1500 to transport it to me. Spoke with the owner again. He said the motor was really worn out before it was rebuilt. Pistons were rocking in the bores, so it needed a .060 overbore. Maybe its ok and maybe not. A .060 overbore seems like a lot, on a 440. Could cause it to run hot or core shift? I guess it depends on the cylinder wall thickness?

 

[Scoopy G]

Was that car a 6-window Town Sedan?