70 Dodge C body research help please

[CBODY67]

I just found the earlier pictures of that car from when it was still assembled and listed as being in NV. No door trim shots, but the rear speaker grille in the rear seat lean-back cushion has "Monaco" in a woodgrained surround. The latest color is not correct, but close, but the interior is certainly one of the correct colors for the bucket seat option.

That car does have the Fratzog emblem in the middle of the rear bumper, though, which might indicate a fall production date? Reason I say that is that my DH43N0D has a March production date and no Fratzog.

I also found a blue '70 Monaco 500 via a Google search. It's listed as being in Canado. No "500" emblems on it, either. No interior shots of the interior.

Might need to check the parts book?

CBODY67

 

[Bill Watson]

I was just looking at the Hamtramck Historical website. Notably in the Advance Information and Order Info sections pertaining to 1970 Dodge Full-Size cars. No mention of Canadian-only Monaco 500s per se, BUT the A75 Monaco 500 option as a 2-dr companion option group A76 Monaco Brougham option, it seems. A75 only on 2dr hardtops and A76 only on 4-doors.

The other tidbit I noticed is that the 440/350 motor is the only 440 listed, but it can also have the N41 Dual Exhaust option.

So, with no Canadian product designation (in this documentation), how did the Russet Metallic '70 Monaco, the highly-optioned one that was for sale and then for sale disassembled, with factory buckets, miss out on the "500" emblems? The plot thickens?

CBODY67

First, the Dodge C body series for 1970 -
L - Polara
M - Polara Custom
H - Monaco
P - Monaco 500

So, the Canadian Monaco 500 was a separate series, not a package. And Dodge in Canada sold the Monaco 500 Brougham as a series, and not as a trim package, even though it really was not a series. And this held true for the Canadian market 1971-73 Monaco Brougham.

Back in those days the Big Three manufacturers published separate Canadian editions (French and English) laying out what was standard and what was optional. Which is why your U.S. book is not very helpful when checking on Canadian versions. This especially holds true for Canadian Dodge, Canadian Pontiac and Ford of Canada's Meteor. An awful lot of Plymouth, Chevrolet and Ford landed up in Canadian Dodge, Pontiac and Meteor cars.

My father ordered a 1970 Dodge Polara (FDL-41) in the fall of 1969. Dark tan exterior, light tan cloth and vinyl interior (basically Fury I with Dodge Fratzogs instead of the stylized Plymouth sails), and slant six engine, with three options - Torqueflite, colour-keyed vinyl trim on side of the car (V5T) and colour-keyed rims (code W55).

According to the Canadian 1970 Dodge Polara/Monaco brochure, the Monaco 500 Brougham offered seats in cloth and vinyl or all-vinyl, bench or bucket, with reclining passenger side. Colours available in light blue, dark green, tan, or black and charcoal.

So, if you wanted to check the validity of the bucket seats, you could check the interior trim code on the body tag.

As for the "500" tags, those are not very big and the stickemon tags were (and still are) noted for falling off. I own a 1988 Caravelle Salon with proof of that. Lost the "Plymouth" nameplate years ago but the "Caravelle " tag is still there. The Canadian 1970 Monaco 500 had "500" stickers next to the "Monaco" nameplates on each front fender and one on the rear of the car just below the "Monaco" nameplate.

Bill
Vancouver, BC

 

[Bill Watson]

@Bill Watson and @CBODY67 : Thank you both -- the sales materials seal the deal. Now the puzzle is the 500 on the trunk of the black car -- not listed as part of the A75 package?

Yes, the A75 package mentions "500" emblems but it does not say where they were applied.

Bill
Vancouver, BC

 

[Bill Watson]

Interiors for Canadian 1970 Dodge -

L - Polara -Cloth & vinyl or all vinyl in sedan - light blue or tan
Wagon - All-vinyl in light blue or tan 3 seat wagon also has choice of dark green or black and charcoal

M - Polara Custom - Cloth & vinyl in sedan and hardtop- light blue, dark green, gold
Wagon - All vinyl in light blue, dark green, tan or black and charcoal

H - Monaco - Cloth & vinyl bench - light blue, dark green, gold, black and charcoal
Wagon - All vinyl bench with centre arm rest - light blue, dark green, tan, or black and charcoal

P - Monaco 500 - All vinyl bench seat with centre arm rest - light blue, dark green, tan, burnt orange. black and peacock, black and white, or black and charcoal
Optional - 50/50 split bench seat with centre arm rest light blue, dark green, tan, or black and charcoal

P - Monaco 500 Brougham - Cloth and vinyl or all vinyl (bench or bucket seats) with recliner on passenger side - light blue, dark green, tan, or black and charcoal
Optional - 50/50 split bench seat with dual centre arm rests and passenger side recliner - light blue, dark green, tan, or black and charcoal

Note that both the bucket seats and the brougham seats are offered in the Monaco 500 Brougham.

When comparing Canadian Dodge seats it is best to compare them with Plymouth Fury. If you look at the Canadian Dodge brochure the interior photos are from the Fury bochure.

 

[Bill Watson]

Cannot find any view of the interior of the Canadian Dodge Polara or the Plymouth Fury I, but, in the following order are :

( FDL - 1970 Dodge Polara -- FPE - Fury I )

1) FDM - 1970 Dodge Polara Custom (FPL - Fury II)

2) FDH- 1970 Dodge Monaco (FPM - Fury III)

3) FDP- Dodge Monaco 500 (FPH - Sport Fury)

4) FDP - Dodge Monaco 500 Brougham

Should also point out that the door and quarter panels were basically Fury units with the Plymouth emblem replaced by Dodge's.

 

[ayilar]

When re-reading through this thread, I noticed this tidbit:

My DH43N0D came with a 383 4bbl option. (...) Regardless of which Code N it might be, at part throttle, the speedometer heads for the triple digits without hesitation. When we first changed the trans fluid, we discovered it had the "small" torque converter for a higher stall speed.

Indeed. Steve (@saforwardlook) has posted a couple of posts in other threads to that effect.

2016:

I had both 383-4 bbl engines and 360-2 bbl stock engines, and both were quick off the line and felt like they had decent torque. In both applications, a high stall speed torque converter was used in the early 70s, and that brought them both alive. When saddled with a low stall speed torque converter, then they couldn't get into their power band so quickly, and therefore, felt more sluggish.

2018:

A lot of guys will spend a lot of resources and time on making the engine more radical, but neglect the transmission. I am not sure about a 1968 383-2 bbl in a C body, for example, but in 1970 and 1971, those engines were always combined with a 727 torqueflite with a low stall speed torque converter. This means something like maybe an 1800 RPM stall speed. With a more performance oriented engine, you will want to get the revs up into a higher RPM band off the line to make use of the improved performance. This means, it would make sense to consider a higher stall speed torque converter, say around 2200 RPM to improve off the line performance. Otherwise, it will still probably feel like a dog despite all the upgrades you are mentioning. In 1970-1, C body models equipped with a 4-bbl carburetor, high performance exhaust manifolds, and a 3.23 axle ratio etc but were also equipped with the higher stall speed converter. That latter change made all the difference to how the car felt overall. To neglect that issue would be a big mistake and you will wonder why you spent all those resources with minimal gain.

Nothing to do with the 500 moniker we've been discussing lately, but I thought it'd be helpful to provide these additional references so that later readers know that @CBODY67 's experience is the standard, not an exception.

 

[ayilar]

As for the "500" tags, those are not very big and the stickemon tags were (and still are) noted for falling off. (...) The Canadian 1970 Monaco 500 had "500" stickers next to the "Monaco" nameplates on each front fender and one on the rear of the car just below the "Monaco" nameplate.

Indeed, and the is on the ever-so-useful fuselage.de website which provides a scan of the Canadian full-size Dodge brochure. Interestingly, this specific page from the brochure shows that (i) the Canadian trunk badging looks just like the black US car that sold in Oregon back in 2014 and is now in Colorado and (ii) the front fender monikers look different on the US Monaco 500 ("500" badge only) and the Canadian Monaco 500 (same "500" badge but next to it is a Monaco badge).

OK, so you might say that this closes the matter? Not so fast -- one more puzzle:

Yes, the A75 package mentions "500" emblems but it does not say where they were applied.

This is true in this piece:

but, as per the rest of the information posted by @CBODY67 yesterday (courtesy of the Hammtrack registry and fuselage.de, and excerpted above and below for emphasis), we see that some of the materials for the US car do mention the badges on the front fenders -- but NOT on the trunk.

Bottom line, though, I am now convinced that (a) there are three emblems on the US 500s and (b) the black car shows both what the three 500 emblems look like and where they should be placed on a 1970 US Monaco 500 hardtop coupe.

That leaves two questions:

1. are any repros available?
2. what are the small badges on the hardtop sail panels?

 

[dh23t]

Bill (if I may -- we have not yet met), thanks a lot for the helpful and rapid reply!

I do see the Monaco script ahead of the rear wheels. My bad on the Brougham option -- not on US coupes, then.

--> That still leaves the question open as to what the tag (for lack of a better word) on the sail panel is.

--> My other question is why we see the "500" tag on the black car, but not on others. Was it added on the black car, or did it somehow disappear from the others? Two examples are @dh23t's here (gator top, showing the same sail panel tag as there black car but no "500" monikers that I can see on the trunk or aft of the front wheels) and @My70monaco's here (painted top; same thing).

Thoughts?

When I bought the A4 silver car, it had part of the original top on the car still, and those monaco emblems were on the c pillars of the car. The 500 emblem was also on the trunk only. They were not on the front fenders.

 

[ayilar]

Thank you very much for the photos! Two more questions (no good deed goes unpunished):

1. Did you keep the 500 emblem after the restoration? I did not see it on the "after" rear shot in your photo garage. Also, was it a "stick-on" as hypothesized by @Bill Watson yesterday evening?

2. Does your Monaco's fender tag or build sheet have M31 on it? On the picture that you kindly just posted, I cannot tell if your car had the belt moldings or there is a painted line at the top of the fender/door. To my eyes, it's not clear there is a 3-D aspect to the line in your car, which looks different from the molding on the all-original TX9 Monaco 500 that sold in Oregon back in 2014. Would you be able to tell us more about what was on your car and, if it was a molding, how it was attached?

 

[dh23t]

Thank you very much for the photos! Two more questions (no good deed goes unpunished):

1. Did you keep the 500 emblem after the restoration? I did not see it on the "after" rear shot in your photo garage. Also, was it a "stick-on" as hypothesized by @Bill Watson ?

2. I have not seen your car's fender's tag, does it have an M31 on it? On the picture, I cannot tell if your car had a belt molding or a painted line at the top of the fender/door. To my eyes, the photo that you kindly just posted looks different from the molding on the all-original TX9 Monaco 500 that sold in Oregon back in 2014. Would you be able to tell us more about what was on your car and, if it was a molding, how it was attached?

It was a stick on emblem. I believe it was thicker on the top, so that it would stand up more vertically, against the rake of the trunk, if that makes sense. It was broken between the two zeros IIRC. Not sure where it ended up. I didn't want to put it back on since it was broken. I think one could replicate it with a 70 charger 500 emblem, if needed. I though I bought some years ago from ebay, but would not know where to start looking. ( i just checked one stash, and didn't find the 500 emblems, but did find a full set of C H R Y S L E R letters for a 70 300 or 73 t and c. so thanks for asking) It wasn't a high priority for me, since I thought they would get pulled off at a car show anyway.
Were you asking me about the belt mouldings or another member?

 

[ayilar]

It was a stick on emblem, with double sided tape. It was thicker on either the top or bottom( i cant remember) , to match the rake of the trunk lid. It was broken between the two zeros IIRC. Not sure where it ended up. I didn't want to put it back on since it was broken. I think one could replicate it with a 70 charger 500 emblem, if needed. I though I bought some years ago from ebay, but would not know where to start looking. It wasn't a high priority for me, since I thought they would get pulled off at a car show anyway.

Thank you, most helpful. If you do find them, and are willing to sell them, please let me know!

Were you asking me about the belt mouldings or another member?

I was indeed asking you -- I just edited my post slightly to clarify my question. Look forward to your answers!

 

[dh23t]

Thank you, most helpful. If you do find them, and are willing to sell them, please let me know!



I was indeed asking you -- I just edited my post slightly to clarify my question. Look forward to your answers!

My fender tag does have M31 on it. The car had belt mouldings on it when i bought it, and they are on it now. The lower V-top moulding was off in the photo, but was with the car, and was put on after the new top. This photo shows the holes in the top of the door where the moulding goes. IIRC, it had moulding clips fore and aft that fastened with a bolt and nut, seen when the door is open. In between, it had wire moulding clips that push through the holes and are similar to many other mopars with thin mouldings.
i just looked through the pile of receipts for the monaco, and did not find one for 500 emblems, but i seem to remember buying 2. They were flat, not like the trunk emblem. I just looked at my crash parts sheet for the car, and found NO 500 emblems listed for the front fenders or the trunk.

 

[ayilar]

Thank you very much -- another helpful answer to one more of my questions!

I am a nitwit, however, in that the belt molding (the one to which you referred) is not the molding I had in mind -- though that's what I called it. Apologies for the confusion (but, as I said, I learned something, so thank you for the photos).

What I meant to ask about is the molding or accent line that runs right above the door handle. I should know its name, but I don't.

I have highlighted the molding in the two pictures of the same car below, which I have chosen because they show the 3-D aspect (suggesting a molding, as opposed to a painted accent line). I looked at the 1970 data book but did not see anything on that line. Any input you may provide would be super!

 

[dh23t]

Thank you, most helpful. If you do find them, and are willing to sell them, please let me know!



I was indeed asking you -- I just edited my post slightly to clarify my question. Look forward to your answers!

My fender tag does have M31 on it. The car had belt mouldings on it when i bought it, and they are on it now. The lower V-top moulding was off in the photo, but was with the car, and was put on after the new top.

 

[dh23t]

My car had a double pinstripe there, in black. I feel like the black car has a double white pinstripe, and it is giving the illusion of 3D.

 

[ayilar]

Thank you! Magnifying the photos, I think you're right.

On the Yahoo Polara/Monaco board, you mentioned (almost 10 years ago) that you'd gotten NOS materials for front seat reskins and had them redone. Where did you get the NOS vinyl -- and did you replace the foam too? Any suggestions for sources 10 years later?

PS: @Bill Watson , @CBODY67 and of course @dh23t , I really appreciate all your help with my questions, and for going way beyond the call of duty to look things up in your records/stashes. Cheers!

 

[CBODY67]

One point of curiosity, IF the deck lid "500" emblem was "a stick on", that in itself seems a little suspect for an OEM item as everything else on the '70 cars was retained with studs/clips that go into drilled/punched holes in the sheet metal. With no holes under the "500" emblem, although the rear studs might have been broken off and molding tape put in their place, I would lean more toward it having been installed after vehicle production, rather than at the assemsawbly plant.

I also respectfully submit that IF the "500" emblem is as the other emblems were back then (studs/clips/retainers), then it would have been necessary for the restoration facility to fill in those holes prior to prime/paint operations. Which would have meant a bit more money to do those things, I suspect. In that orientation, a restoration/repaint might not be a reason the emblems were not reinstalled on the vehicle. Personally, IF the car was special and had those distinctive emblems on it from the factory, I'd want them put back on (polished, re-painted/touched-up) the finished vehicle . . . at least that's what I'd want to do myself. Still, though, stick-on emblems were not the order of the day in almost every OEM in 1970. By the many re-designs of the later '70s, a different story, by observation, as the fewer holes punched in a piece of metal, the less possibility for "rust" to happen, with many OEMs now having "rust-through" factory warranties later on.

When I aw the pictures of the black car, I noticed what looked like a heavy, white pinstripe on it, rather than what I'd term "the normal pinstripe" on the car (as the light green car indicates and my '70 DH43 has on it). I can see where it might be a thin, anodized aluminum molding, too. Does anybody know of the current where-abouts of that car in recent times? Just curious.

Just some thoughts/reactions,
CBODY67

 

[dh23t]

Thank you! Magnifying the photos, I think you're right.

On the Yahoo Polara/Monaco board, you mentioned (almost 10 years ago) that you'd gotten NOS materials for front seat reskins and had them redone. Where did you get the NOS vinyl -- and did you replace the foam too? Any suggestions for sources 10 years later?

PS: @Bill Watson , @CBODY67 and of course @dh23t , I really appreciate all your help with my questions, and for going way beyond the call of duty to look things up in your records/stashes. Cheers!

SMS Auto Fabrics , Doug Pollock. They will still have the material, I am reasonably sure of that. I have always had good luck with them, on several projects. Some others here may have had different experiences. Remain patient, and you will get what you need. They built the top for my car too. It cost 475 bucks, when a "plain" boar grain top was $159 dollars. I had to think about that for a minute back then.

 

[ayilar]

One point of curiosity, IF the deck lid "500" emblem was "a stick on", that in itself seems a little suspect for an OEM item as everything else on the '70 cars was retained with studs/clips that go into drilled/punched holes in the sheet metal. With no holes under the "500" emblem, although the rear studs might have been broken off and molding tape put in their place, I would lean more toward it having been installed after vehicle production, rather than at the assemsawbly plant.

I initially was suspicious too, which is why I spent much of my spare time on this question in the past couple of days.

By now, though, I'll stick (pun intended) with the answer that, indeed, the badges were "stickemons" as Bill said:

(i) @Bill Watson mentions that stick-ons were used, and @dh23t saw with his own eyes a stick-on with different thickness to accommodate for the trunk shape.
(ii) what is the likelihood that the only two true survivors of which I know, photographed years apart with their original paint in different states (the EA4 car pic dates to 2008 and it was originally from Michigan AFAIK, the TX9 car pic dates to 2014 and it was originally from Oregon), would have the exact same 500 badge in the exact same trunk location?

I also respectfully submit that IF the "500" emblem is as the other emblems were back then (studs/clips/retainers), then it would have been necessary for the restoration facility to fill in those holes prior to prime/paint operations. Which would have meant a bit more money to do those things, I suspect.

Indeed -- an observation that lends further support to the "stickemon" story.

Personally, IF the car was special and had those distinctive emblems on it from the factory, I'd want them put back on (polished, re-painted/touched-up) the finished vehicle . . . at least that's what I'd want to do myself.

That was my original thinking too, and what got me started pondering the matter in the first place. This being said, while the 500 emblems aft of the front wheels look aesthetically acceptable to my eyes (and they are mentioned in the OEM Dodge materials), the trunk moniker looks pretty bad IMHO -- to my eyes, the "500" script just does not match the Monaco cursive above it. I understand that the "500 logo" may be the exact same one as on other 1970 Dodge models of the 500 variety, but I still don't like it much and I can actually understand why @dh23t did not put it back on -- all the more so that, with stick-ons, the new owner of his car can easily make the change himself.

When I saw the pictures of the black car, I noticed what looked like a heavy, white pinstripe on it, rather than what I'd term "the normal pinstripe" on the car (as the light green car indicates and my '70 DH43 has on it). I can see where it might be a thin, anodized aluminum molding, too.

@saforwardlook also had pinstripes on his Monaco (not a 500). With your car and @dh23t 's, plus the TX9, that makes it 4 out of 4 survivor 1970 Monacos with pinstripes. Furthermore, there is no mention of the possibility of a molding there in the Dodge data book or any other period materials I have seen. So here also, I'll go with the simplest explanation -- there may have been a pinstripe and the optical illusion of a molding on the black car (my bad).

This begs the question of whether the pinstripes were dealer-installed or factory items. The difference between the EA4 and TX9 pinstripes suggests the former, but I'd like to know for sure.

Does anybody know of the current where-abouts of that car in recent times?

Last I heard (2017) it was in Colorado. Any updates (ideally from the owner, if he sees this)?

 

[saforwardlook]

I initially was suspicious too, which is why I spent much of my spare time on this question in the past couple of days.

By now, though, I'll stick (pun intended) with the answer that, indeed, the badges were "stickemons" as Bill said:

(i) @Bill Watson mentions that stick-ons were used, and @dh23t saw with his own eyes a stick-on with different thickness to accommodate for the trunk shape.
(ii) what is the likelihood that the only two true survivors of which I know, photographed years apart with their original paint in different states (the EA4 car pic dates to 2008 and it was originally from Michigan AFAIK, the TX9 car pic dates to 2014 and it was originally from Oregon), would have the exact same 500 badge in the exact same trunk location?



Indeed -- an observation that lends further support to the "stickemon" story.



That was my original thinking too, and what got me started pondering the matter in the first place. This being said, while the 500 emblems aft of the front wheels look aesthetically acceptable to my eyes (and they are mentioned in the OEM Dodge materials), the trunk moniker looks pretty bad IMHO -- to my eyes, the "500" script just does not match the Monaco cursive above it. I understand that the "500 logo" may be the exact same one as on other 1970 Dodge models of the 500 variety, but I still don't like it much and I can actually understand why @dh23t did not put it back on -- all the more so that, with stick-ons, the new owner of his car can easily make the change himself.



@saforwardlook also had pinstripes on his Monaco (not a 500). With your car and @dh23t 's, plus the TX9, that makes it 4 out of 4 survivor 1970 Monacos with pinstripes. Furthermore, there is no mention of the possibility of a molding there in the Dodge data book or any other period materials I have seen. So here also, I'll go with the simplest explanation -- there may have been a pinstripe and the optical illusion of a molding on the black car (my bad).

This begs the question of whether the pinstripes were dealer-installed or factory items. The difference between the EA4 and TX9 pinstripes suggests the former, but I'd like to know for sure.



Last I heard (2017) it was in Colorado. Any updates (ideally from the owner, if he sees this)?

The pinstripes were factory. Very common in 1970. My 1970 Chrysler 300 (my avatar car), also has dual pin stripes applied at the factory.