70 Dodge C body research help please

[Bill Watson]

Some new information has surfaced and we're trying to rectify some factory shipment numbers. The info doesn't balance.

Was there a 70 Dodge spring special, or a special release some other time of the year, that may have been VINned differently on the window sticker or dealer invoice? For example, and example only......was there a Polara 318 Special with a low trim option package that carried a PE VIN on the window sticker or invoice? Was there a higher trim or Special Monaco with a Deluxe package released some time? The info we're seeking could have even been related to a station wagon package/special release. It's possible it was a special option package on a specific model.

We don't know what it was that could account for the discrepancy. We just know the numbers don't balance indicating shipments of cars not accounted for by the expected VINs. There was something else shipped.

Part two: has anyone ever seen credible numbers for Canada sold Monaco 500 cars?

Thanks.

The shipment reports (1970-1973) I have were done for cars built for the U.S. market. When doing Plymouth Fury production balancing we know the total production by series and body style. As a result by taking the difference between shipments and body style numbers we can figure out how many cars were built for Canada and export combined.

What we need are the shipment reports for the Windsor plant.

As for the Monaco Special, there was one in 1974 - Canadian market.

In 1970 Dodge in the U.S. pushed down into the low-priced three market with the Polara Special going after the Fury II market. In Canada Dodge was already in the low-priced three market (okay, a little above). Thus in 1971 the Canadian market Dodge used the same model names and VIN as in the U.S. (Excepting Polara Brougham). Chrysler Canada added their Fury I Dodge at the bottom for 1971 - DS - Polara Special. In 1974 it became the Monaco Special with the dropping of the Polara name.

 

[Bill Watson]

"What we need are the shipment reports for the Windsor plant." should read "What we need are the shipment reports for the Canadian market."

The bulk of the Canadian maket C body Dodges, including the Dodge Monaco 500, would have been built in Windsor and Belvidere, IL. The cars built for the Amercan market totalled 92,913 -
Belvidere - 63,112
Newark - 15,080
Windsor - 14,721

Which left export and Canadian markets with a total of 17,319 -
Belvidere - 12,176
Newark - 1,456
Windsor - 3,687

 

[sdweatherman]

Very cool Bill. The monthly shipping report that I referenced is the only one of its kind that I have ever seen. I know that many individuals outside of Chrysler have various copies of the SG30 O&A reports, but how common is it to come across these monthly reports?
Thanks,
Scott.

 

[cantflip]

I have to admit that I have been lost and clueless going through most of this thread. Thank goodness for bean counters though... @69CoronetRT, do you also do taxes?

Will you be making it to Carlisle again this year?

Seriously, I am kind of amazed at the work and detail you folks are putting into this. I'm thinking I would not be so concerned by any of the numbers regarding my favorite cars, could somebody please educate me how I would use this information in my enjoyment of the cars? Even if it's only to get the history correct, I do appreciate the effort and your finding your own way to enjoy this pursuit.

 

[69CoronetRT]

I have to admit that I have been lost and clueless going through most of this thread. Thank goodness for bean counters though... @69CoronetRT, do you also do taxes?

Will you be making it to Carlisle again this year?

Seriously, I am kind of amazed at the work and detail you folks are putting into this. I'm thinking I would not be so concerned by any of the numbers regarding my favorite cars, could somebody please educate me how I would use this information in my enjoyment of the cars? Even if it's only to get the history correct, I do appreciate the effort and your finding your own way to enjoy this pursuit.

Taxes? God no. There's a reason they don't lt me do payroll or work with money at work.

No Carlisle this year. A R&R bucket list trip to CA sucked up the travel funds for 2017.

There is a lot of misinformation and plain wrong info about our hobby. The guys I know and collaborate with are more about historical accuracy and trying to just "get it right". That's why we seek not only the micro information (fender tags, broadcast sheets, window stickers) on individual cars but macro (factory reports, dealer books) items too.

It's a little bit of forensic archeology and a lot of OCD.

 

[cantflip]

Taxes? God no. There's a reason they don't lt me do payroll or work with money at work.

No Carlisle this year. A R&R bucket list trip to CA sucked up the travel funds for 2017.

There is a lot of misinformation and plain wrong info about our hobby. The guys I know and collaborate with are more about historical accuracy and trying to just "get it right". That's why we seek not only the micro information (fender tags, broadcast sheets, window stickers) on individual cars but macro (factory reports, dealer books) items too.

It's a little bit of forensic archeology and a lot of OCD.

Sorry I won't get to see you again this year. Thanks for helping me understand a little better.

 

[Bill Watson]

These are the only ones I have seen - Factory Shipment of Cars - Domestic, Report No. 6006. It is split into Chrysler-Plymouth Division and Dodge Division on the issues I have. I suspect there are editions for Export and Canada. No sure who was responsible for producing these reports, but I would love to get the whole set!

I have a photocopy of a Canadian shipment report for calendar year 1941 which shows the totals by model year, make, model and body style. It shows 1941 cars and a few 1940 cars that were not shipped until 1941.

Thomas McPerson, author of "The Dodge Story" mentions Canadian production figures throughout the book but they don't jive with anything else published. Finally figured out that they are not production figures, but shipments. The tip off was the one Dodge DQ "built" in 1934. The DP and the DQ went into production in November, 1932 with the last built in December, 1933. So one DQ shipped in 1934 would be viable. But not one produced in 1934. Would love to see what he was working with. Although they were shipment reports, by combining them you could extrapolate production figures.

By the way, contrary to what the Plymouth Owners Club says, the DQ was not based on the PD. The DQ went into production in November, 1932 while the PD went into production in April, 1933. Rather hard to base car A on car B when car A was in production FIVE MONTHS BEFORE car B. The DQ used DP engines and their body style production figures are included in the DP figures. Mr. McPherson's shipment reports should show separate figures for the DQ.

WPC News reprinted the 1946-1948 DeSoto article complete with Shipments Report. Only this time the report was re-titiled Production Report. And it is NOT production. DeSoto S11 production ended in January, 1949 with the new S13 beginning about two weeks later. Shipments of the S11 continued until they were all gone. Which is what the S11 Shipment Report shows.

Really is important to understand the meanings of Production and Shipment.

 

[polara71]

Thank you Bill, always enjoy reading what you and Kevin have to say. Both of you leave me wanting more

 

[GregG48203]

Sorry to be off-topic, but:

how I would use this information

If collectible C-bodies were worth more than a fraction of top-dollar B-bodies, this site would be bombarded with new members asking "What's It Worth" questions. Worst case scenario is a statistician like Galen is dragged into court to give testimony about why a millionaire's recent auction purchase isn't "One of One".

 

[commando1]

Sorry to be off-topic, but:

If collectible C-bodies were worth more than a fraction of top-dollar B-bodies, this site would be bombarded with new members asking "What's It Worth" questions. Worst case scenario is a statistician like Galen is dragged into court to give testimony about why a millionaire's recent auction purchase isn't "One of One".

Every once in a while, a newbie pops up and his first post will be something like, I have a [Fill in the blank here]. How many....

I cringe...

 

[69CoronetRT]

Every once in a while, a newbie pops up and his first post will be something like, I have a [Fill in the blank here]. How many....

I cringe...

And I know why.

Yet, human curiosity being what it is, it's a normal question. That's why some people do dive into the numbers; to help give the most accurate answer possible.

Given the data available, the most honest and accurate answer is...."there is no way to know an exact answer."

 

[1978 NYB]

And I know why.

Yet, human curiosity being what it is, it's a normal question. That's why some people do dive into the numbers; to help give the most accurate answer possible.

Given the data available, the most honest and accurate answer is...."there is no way to know an exact answer."

Here's a challenge....

What was the last C-Body built?

NY'er or Newport?

Date?

Picture?

And any other info.....

 

[69CoronetRT]

Here's a challenge....

What was the last C-Body built?

NY'er or Newport?

Date?

Picture?

And any other info.....

Iirc...we talked about this and it seems like one of the members posted some info. Sadly, I do not run across enough late C bodies to get tag pics.

 

[1978 NYB]

Iirc...we talked about this and it seems like one of the members posted some info. Sadly, I do not run across enough late C bodies to get tag pics.

Doug, I inquired twice with Chrysler historical and they don't have any info at all.

 

[polara71]

And I know why.

Yet, human curiosity being what it is, it's a normal question. That's why some people do dive into the numbers; to help give the most accurate answer possible.

Given the data available, the most honest and accurate answer is...."there is no way to know an exact answer."

I think we all want to know how many were made of what we are driving. Rarity is in the eye of the beholder, like rusty and beauty . Ive seen many a CL ad saying one of only 9000 made.

Based on the percentages Doug, you are correct, no exact answer but you guys with the numbers can get pretty damn close.

 

[Bill Watson]

Knowing how many were built is nice, but that does not tell you how many are left. Hundreds of thousands were built as sedans but many served duty as police, taxi, hauling families around and generally treated as garbage. Thus the overwhelming majority landed up rusting away somewhere or put into a nice cube to start the process over again.

So, give them the number of vehicles produced, but advise them this means nothing. The important one is how many are left. Unfortunately no one knows how many are left, or can even make a guesstimate.

And as to survival ask someone at the Edsel club for a figure on how many 1960 Edsel convertibles were built. Then ask another member how many Edsel convertibles still exist. I know at one time more cars were in existence than rolled off the assembly line.

 

[polara71]

We've said the same thing about the 70 Hurst

 

[Fratzog]

We've said the same thing about the 70 Hurst

Dave I'll suggest that someone like yourself who has watched the market carefully wrt 70 Polara convertibles is the exception to Bill's rule about no one being able to make a guesstimate regarding remaining numbers. Based on your experience could we ball park the 70 Polara convertible survival rate in the neighbourhood of 1:5? If so wouldn't that rate then apply to all C Body convertibles?

 

[69CoronetRT]

Dave I'll suggest that someone like yourself who has watched the market carefully wrt 70 Polara convertibles is the exception to Bill's rule about no one being able to make a guesstimate regarding remaining numbers. Based on your experience could we ball park the 70 Polara convertible survival rate in the neighbourhood of 1:5? If so wouldn't that rate then apply to all C Body convertibles?

Fwiw...

I've been tracking 69 R/T convertibles for about 15 years. The White Book shows 483 total made. I have 78 VINs on file. About half of those cars are gone. I just have a VIN. In my estimation, from those I have seen, only about 30 of the cars that still exist are roadworthy. That's less than 1:15.

My GUESS is that Polaras would be equal to or less than that.

 

[polara71]

Dave I'll suggest that someone like yourself who has watched the market carefully wrt 70 Polara convertibles is the exception to Bill's rule about no one being able to make a guesstimate regarding remaining numbers. Based on your experience could we ball park the 70 Polara convertible survival rate in the neighbourhood of 1:5? If so wouldn't that rate then apply to all C Body convertibles?

Fred, I'd have to sit and look hard at those numbers. We have located of the 842 about 110. Most of those were either in junk yards or some other state of disrepair.

I would think the R/T that Doug mentions has a higher survival rate since it was a more desirable car by the masses over the years.
Cutting the 110 down Fred I'd bet 50 of our beloved Polaras are on the road.
I'm still believing there are another 50 for me to locate.
Reading through your question again I would think we could presume a similar number for all c body ragtops. For the record Doug, I've been watching these cars for 35 years. The problem is I didn't keep track of the fender tags until about 2000