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Sorry to hear this Gerald. It sucks to have put all of your great effort into that issue for it to turn out like this.
A Lovely Old Spinster, Virgin No More!
- Thread starter Gerald Morris
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thethee
Senior Member
Terrible news. It's well above my skill level so I'll just wish you the best of luck and I really hope you can get to the bottom of this.
Hey Gerald, I can hear the defeat in your "voice"... if you have it in you to continue diagnosis one more time... start from a clean slate. Yes coolant leaking is a disturbing sign, but from where? UV tracer dye is a wonderful thing and may help show the leak is from a bolt or casting plug that didn't seal.
I know you were counting on the head gaskets, and with the gunk you found in the cooling passages I was becoming hopeful too.
First coolant flow... you can try with or without the thermostat installed, but make sure you have serious coolant flow. Without a thermostat or at fully open there should be fairly violent flow coming into the radiator. You've already got thermostat testing on overkill... so I'm not too worried there.
This radiator that you hate... does it have cool spots (especially the center)? If this car has a clutch fan, is the clutch a lot of resistance to move? I've had some that I held in place with tape until the engine got hot enough to active it... may need a box fan in front of the car to help this along. Measure temperature at both hoses while running, the radiator should be providing a significant drop. All low tech testing which you can get inventive with.
If the head gaskets are causing the overheat condition, the block test should prove it. If you have a non-contact thermometer available, you can shot the engine all over and try to find any isolated spots that aren't cooling as well but I'd be surprised if that was the root of the overheating you've been enjoying.
I know you were counting on the head gaskets, and with the gunk you found in the cooling passages I was becoming hopeful too.
First coolant flow... you can try with or without the thermostat installed, but make sure you have serious coolant flow. Without a thermostat or at fully open there should be fairly violent flow coming into the radiator. You've already got thermostat testing on overkill... so I'm not too worried there.
This radiator that you hate... does it have cool spots (especially the center)? If this car has a clutch fan, is the clutch a lot of resistance to move? I've had some that I held in place with tape until the engine got hot enough to active it... may need a box fan in front of the car to help this along. Measure temperature at both hoses while running, the radiator should be providing a significant drop. All low tech testing which you can get inventive with.
If the head gaskets are causing the overheat condition, the block test should prove it. If you have a non-contact thermometer available, you can shot the engine all over and try to find any isolated spots that aren't cooling as well but I'd be surprised if that was the root of the overheating you've been enjoying.
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I might just have that head magna fluxed. If it’s cracked you could just grab one head off of Matilda and bolt it on and go.
Gerald Morris
Senior Member
Aye, but I know that I really had but few choices, and think I played my cards as best as could be given them. I knew good and well that any time one removes the cylinder heads, breaking the seal with the block, one risks all manner of PAN-DAEMONIUM! I now am fairly sure that an examination of this engine from outside the compartment, and with the rat excrement removed from ALL the surface will show a nasty crack just below the deck near cylinder #8. Every attempt to correct this problem exacerbated it!
By cleaning the coolant jacket, I unclogged the crack!
By replacing the factory head gaskets, I assured that ample flow TO the crack would be possible. (unclogging coolant ports in the heads and block deck.)
This learning experience will stay in my mind until my last rattle now, as does the original horror of a MUCH younger, drunken, enraged fool destroying a lovely FE 390 many years ago by refusing to stop and refill the coolant when it would have saved the situation. My horror of overheating an engine arises from that, and I swore "Never again!" when I got my first vehicle in Tucson, still long ago! DAMN! Tempis fugit!
Once I get that 383 OUT, and Mathilda's IN, we should have a RELIABLE engine for some time. I'm not even going to remove a valve cover from that one. Then I have the 400, which at long last, I'm going to get out of storage, Deo volente, and begin its rehabilitation. I might hire a shop for this. At least I found one which specializes in MoPar products, particularly those we prize.
Bless you for your noble sympathy.
Gerald Morris
Senior Member
Don't think its the head bro. I know human eyes can't compare to magnaflux or sonar, but when the discharge from the motor comes from down low, one might suspect either the bolts didn't torque down well, a crack lurks in the block, or both BEFORE suspecting the head. Remember: most of the debris in the coolant jacket was in that back corner! Where would a crack be most apt to form, but where coolant couldn't circulate? I couldn't even DRAIN that corner until I pulled the middle "freeze plug" and went in with a screwdriver, then a drain snake to clear some of that out. Then the Thermocure most assuredly DID its job! I looked and fingered yesterday and the coolant jacket cleared!
So now the coolant zooms up to 210F in 3 minutes from start. NOT GOOD! While the iron sides of the engine are at ~150-160F, the coolant pump housing goes to ~190F. I don't DARE run it like this!
Yes, there WILL BE A MAGNAFLUX VAT FOR THIS ENGINE!
Besides, Mathilda's heads are 516s. One of those wouldn't do well with a 906 on the other side, AND MATHILDA'S WORST POINT IS HER HEADS. I'll leave them where they are for now.
I have loose a pair of extra 906s, 3 915s, a pair of 452s and one 516. All of these need work, though the 452s MIGHT still be serviceable. I have 3 pairs of rocker arm assemblies. More examination of these will be needed before putting any to work.
The WORST obstacle to work around here though remains the pair of autistic little gremlins, aged 3 and 6 years. I rejoice that the older of them learned not to disturb Daddy when he's working without good cause, but the Little Gremlin practically amounts to a chimpanzee with a sledge hammer working over these old Mopars.
Pray or wish us well here. Mathilda's heart will beat again!
Gerald Morris
Senior Member
Good Morning Jeff!
I had hoped the head job would turn the trick, and it looked SOOO promising that first post-op startup! The oil pressure came up even when cranking. NOW I have plenty bubbles in the coolant after the 3 minute test runs. The only flaw in the radiator is the leak where the top tank was welded to the core, and burst under pressure after a bad overheating session. I still get over 40 psi on a cold start-up, but that 52 psi only happened on the first start. There IS coolant in the oil now, enough to muck up the pump/pickup cycle. The radiator, a 2898057, IS meant for a 383, with a manual tranny, like the starter relay in this beast.
I pulled the stat before the Thermocure enema, to maximize flow for it, and have watched the flow in the radiator a number of times before and since, in hope that a wonky water pump WOULD be the issue. No such luck. It makes a lively flow from the top of the radiator, just as the designers meant it to. These non-AC pumps churn that coolant quick!
I already bought and installed another A-Team Performance 16" pusher fan. Those are the BEST bang for the buck for assing air flow past a radiator. $30 gets you more than double what a shroud can help you pull through, though eventually, I WILL shroud a radiator on this car.
I also have had for over a year now an IR gun thermometer. This helped me read the temperatures on the skirt, the cylinder heads, the radiator and water pump housing, to name a few places I use it. Thus I've verified that while coolant temperature zooms up to 210F in JUST 3 MINUTES RUNTIME, the coolant jacket sides, by the cylinders, read just ~150-160 F, the coolant pump housing reads about 190F, et cetera.
Here's a datum to contemplate, worth a kiloword as the saying goes:
1.) The leak comes from a faulty head gasket seal above it
2.) The leak comes from a crack in the vicinity of the spark plug
or, these not being EXCLUSIVE OR possibilities, BOTH of these hypothetical leaks exist and are pushing plenty exhaust into the coolant jacket, and blowing coolant into the crankcase oil.
I haven't any more time for academic consi9derations. I COULD try re-tightening the head bolts, or better yet, REPLACING them with the other half of the ARP bolts I bought for this job. While the old bolts from this side presented little difficulty for screwing back in, I suspect that was the FINAL SELF SCREWING I perpetrated in this job. I'll Never Again risk using used head bolts, even if used but once. Like I told the Babushka, a grade of 99% is STILL AN F on THIS Exam!
I also don't foresee myself attempting another head job without some mechanical assistance. Despite being able to stand on the ground withg one foot in that engine compartment, I shouldn't have tried man-handling that head into position. Granted, the head went onto the dowels, but only a rat turd particle would have sufficed to produce the ugly result represented by this picture. I made many efforts to eliminate such, but one can't be sure. I also pointed out as the sickening news and horror hit the Babushka just how important that $35 straight edge might have been to this job. Academic now, but she learns quickly and well. NEVER EVER SCRIMP ON TOOLS!
OK, I think I've left enough here for Future Faithful Readers.
You're the Best Jeff! Bless you.
Gerald Morris
Senior Member
BLESS YOU! Yes, this has been a terrible ordeal, but one we can ALL learn from. Look, its above MY skill set, as formally defined by sundry academic and professional bureaus too, but I have the tools, some shop training, and had the parts even, for the most part. Just knowing that the initial startup went well for a few minutes, until it overheated, blowing out the too fragile new gasket instills confidence in me. I screwed up horribly, for sure, but I have a pretty clear idea of just where and how. Its academic though, I need to get a RELIABLE motor IN that car! Deo gratias, this we have and now will do. I can pick through wreckage then at leisure.
Gerald Morris
Senior Member
HMMMMMmmmmmmm! Just went out to try starting her up for another little test run. Got her cranked. VERY LITTLE coolant on the dipstick this morning, Deo gratias! I'd changed the oil yesterday, after the enema, and so far, NO COOLANT IN THE OIL AFTER ALL!!!! Dare I hope?
Now, on startup, oil pressure came on strong even before the engine "lit" as Uncle Tony says. Now, look at the startup readings:
Back to 51 psi on startup for oil pressure. VERY acceptable!
ALSO, THE COOLANT WAS NOT FLOWING WHEN I LOOKED!!!! I THINK I will try another pump. Got one in the shed, or that sino-abomination from Gates in Mathilda. Hmmmm, will try the Carter first. Its a non-AC unit AND Made in the U.S.A.
With NO thermostat, that damned coolant should be MOVING all the time. Dare I try that other rebuilt pump?
ALSO, THE COOLANT WAS NOT FLOWING WHEN I LOOKED!!!! I THINK I will try another pump. Got one in the shed, or that sino-abomination from Gates in Mathilda. Hmmmm, will try the Carter first. Its a non-AC unit AND Made in the U.S.A.
With NO thermostat, that damned coolant should be MOVING all the time. Dare I try that other rebuilt pump?
live4theking
Old Man with a Hat
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The outer most (front and rear) exhaust bolts go into water jackets. Did you put thread sealant on them?
Gerald Morris
Senior Member
Ah hah! Radiator is mostly PLUGGED! Will try hosing the **** out of it. Motor running GREAT for a few minutes before getting hot. Let's try restoring COOLANT FLOW!
Gerald Morris
Senior Member
Never took them loose. Somebody used STUDS there, which I thank the Lord for. They never budged either. Fairly EASY to unbolt the manifold actually. I WAS mindful of that issue, but, it never arose.
So maybe you did better than you feared... run through all of the basics... hopefully you won't have a problem where that stud decided to leak... intake and exhaust bolt holes are often not blind, but damned if I can ever remember which ones on which engines... let me tell you about the rear main "leak" I fixed the third time the transmission was pulled, when I realized it was an intake bolt into an oil galley that was the culprit. Even if the head gasket got bunged up somehow, get her fully diagnosed before dismantling so this engine isn't just sitting as a boat anchor/parts donor without really knowing why. Oh... and keep using that radiator as a "filter" for as long as you can... no point in clogging a brand new one.
Gerald Morris
Senior Member
We're on the same, page, paragraph and line! THIS motor RUNS when it runs, and we WANT her here. If I can just get the temperature to stabilize below a pressurized boiling point, preferably by at least 30 degrees Fahrenheit but even 10 will do, so long as its STABLE, then we can USE the damned thing.
I cleaned out the radiator this afternoon, and replaced the water pump with one appropriate to this motor. Pix follow:
As mentioned, the radiator got a good enema. When it took over 1 minute to fill it, I called it DONE.
This is the coolant pump that came with the car. No-Name, AC motor type pump. It works, somewhat.
Near Agua Prieta, quality automotive parts and supplies become a bit scarce, especially when brains are also. Note the generic window seal-
ant found loose in the bottom of this housing. I doubt if this enhanced flow. More of this window silicon remained on the pump body itself.
To give due credit here; there were NO LEAKS from this pump, even with a very aged paper gasket still on the housing. I scrubbed that with my fine steel wire brush in short order.
The replacement pump came from Carter, rebuilt during the early 1970s. Its the right sort for no AC.
I discovered this new RTV, shown below. A 90 minute CURE TIME sure makes things possible when you need them!
There is a time and place for gasket maker, but it shouldn't be too hard to do without there... for future gasket considerations, our friend Jer @BIGBARNEYCARS turned me onto this outfit some years back... great quality, installation requires careful attention to everything including hands being clean and dry, but they seal wonderfully, require light torque and should remain reusable forever if they don't get mangled.
Home
While you look for that leak/seep issue... don't forget the casting plugs, new or old, it wouldn't be the first time someone had problems with one.
I'm extremely happy to hear there is light at the end of the tunnel... its a Chrysler... trains aren't a problem.
Gerald Morris
Senior Member
It works. We can use the car tomorrow morning.
It WORKS! I ran her 14 minutes in the driveway, with temperature rising to but 208 F at the fast idle I stupidly had STUCK from the choke earlier. But it cooled itself with most of that little radiator now back in functional order!
IT WORKS!!! GRATIAS A SANCTUS IOSEPH, PATRONUS MECANICA!!!!!
I drove in a nice brass plug where I had used the rubber bung while rooting out and flushing the block. I like brass plugs with a tad of Indianhead Shellac on the rim. Stuff dries slow, but its OH SO TOUGH once it cures! Any plug I drive in gets Indianhead!
We'll have a Mass offered for you Jeff. We need you alive and sane when we buy old C-bodies! This makes your SECOND Morris Family Existential Crisis, which you provided the Key Solution to. The first was an oil pump pressure regulator, 5 years, seven months previous.
I remember favors!
Benedicte semper.
Gerald Morris
Senior Member
P.S. I used the RTV because the surface of that old reman pump near the mating surface was rough. Didn't care to chance a leak, so close to getting that hulk streetable again. Amazingly enough, there has been no further moisture appearing on the dip stick, nor any seepage by #8. Whether angels or thermodynamics made that head settle down into its home is a matter for me to take up with the Padres this weekend.
These two hypotheses are NOT exclusive of course. Angels live in happy, large towns on the surfaces of electrons after all.......
thethee
Senior Member
Congratulations Gerald! Great to hear that the problem seems to have been resolved and she finally runs cool again. Your perseverance sure paid off!
I am so glad for you... my contributions were few, and as to sanity... well, be careful slinging that word around here.It works. We can use the car tomorrow morning.
It WORKS! I ran her 14 minutes in the driveway, with temperature rising to but 208 F at the fast idle I stupidly had STUCK from the choke earlier. But it cooled itself with most of that little radiator now back in functional order!
IT WORKS!!! GRATIAS A SANCTUS IOSEPH, PATRONUS MECANICA!!!!!
I drove in a nice brass plug where I had used the rubber bung while rooting out and flushing the block. I like brass plugs with a tad of Indianhead Shellac on the rim. Stuff dries slow, but its OH SO TOUGH once it cures! Any plug I drive in gets Indianhead!
We'll have a Mass offered for you Jeff. We need you alive and sane when we buy old C-bodies! This makes your SECOND Morris Family Existential Crisis, which you provided the Key Solution to. The first was an oil pump pressure regulator, 5 years, seven months previous.
I remember favors!
Benedicte semper.
Because there was some coolant in the crankcase at some point, I'd recommend you test her out for the next several days and then give her a fresh oil change... coolant tends to attack the bearing surfaces... should not be a big deal, but would be worth investing in the new oil/filter to be sure it's clean. Small amounts for long periods are worse than large amounts for short periods.
Glad someone from my generation was able to contribute at least a little to helping you past all of the tragic events the cell phone obsessed member caused you
Gerald Morris
Senior Member
Big thx bro, BUT ITS A LOOOONG WAY FROM OVER! We just restored her to an operative range of about 2 miles before the temperature reaches 210 F. I shut her down and let the pusher cool her off then.
AM SHOPPING FOR A GOOD 22 X 18 INCH RADIATOR!
DAMN the Chinese AND greedy suck-butt crapitalists here who shipped the ENTIRE INDUSTRY TO CHINA FOR PENNIES ON THE DOLLAR JUST TO SPITE AMERICAN WORKERS! Oh, but THAT'S NOT TREASON, while asking for a pay raise IS! And thus it ever was and shall be in the Empire of Mammon.
Anyway, I get overheated too, when confronted with the gutting of what once made this country TRULY a great one. My abject apologies.
I'll see what can be done with my old 1965 radiator at a good shop, if there are any around here. THAT radiator was the BEST I've ever run, on any of the many vehicles I've owned.
I might even try a 26 x 18 inch radiator, temporarily, just to give Gertrude better range. For now, I foresee twice-weekly flushings with what I have on Trudi....
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