commando1
Old Man with a Hat
What's your beef with me?
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polara71
Old Man with a Hat
rags
Senior Member
maybe you were hoping that i would do more to challenge the idealistic view of the fifties, which would be justifiable because they were in fact not so ideal for many. if anything in addressing me as brutus, who was a treacherous murderer, it was me who should have been insulted. also to determine whether a person is a "freethinker" from one line in one post is plainly absurd and again is something of an insult. irregardless, i had meant no insult to you at all and in explanation mean you no apology. to all the other members here however, i do sincerely apologize for any disruption this may have caused.
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Carmine
Old Man with a Hat
Steve basically said the same thing I would have. I don't believe that non-religious people are absent a moral code, (just as many religious people are immoral).
Fratzog
Old Man with a Hat
I was going to resist the temptation to wade into this but have decided to take a different approach. In this regard I only ask what level of certainty do you as a religious person have in the existence of God. Before you answer please take the time to read and listen to the following.
Psychological Harms of Bible-Believing Christianity
Psychological Harms of Bible-Believing Christianity
Fratzog
Old Man with a Hat
So what you wrote was an insult to my reasonable interpretation of your response to the "God mattered.." comment (or did you not read or understand that initial post before you responded to it?) In any case I can handle your criticism for what it is worth.
polara71
Old Man with a Hat
This response is really only intended for Fratzog - read it if you wish, but I am not expecting that anyone else might.
Although I would like this thread to end, I felt Fratzog at least deserved a response to his well-intended inquiry.
To respond, I would like to ask Fratzog to consider the following scenario, even if you don't believe in its likelihood at this point in time in your life.
Lets just accept for this example, that the God of the Bible is who He says He is and your are brought to appear before Him when your life on this planet ceases, and he asks why you "didn't believe in Him?" - keep in mind the gravity of the interview, here you are standing before the claimed creator of universe who ends up being real (in this example), and your knees are probably knocking even if you DO believe in Him.
He asks you the following questions before you respond:
Who did you think created the mountains, the skies, the sea, and mankind itself? He asks: Don't you think that the creation of a human being is a miracle? Or do you really believe a human being just evolved from dirt by random chance into what you, for example, became?
The Bible is the most prevalent book on religion in the world (as your video confirms), even granting that there are other books making religious claims of high volume too, and given that Christianity is the largest religion in the world, what did you do to examine the claims of the Bible that it is the insprired, inerrant word of God? Or did you just look for an excuse to ignore it?
Did you notice or hear that it says "no one, no not even one person, seeks after God". Did you wonder then how anyone is saved? Did you ever even look into that claim or reflect then on that question?
As God, I don't believe you have an excuse for ignoring me since the creation alone shows there is a divine hand in its making. So what is your defense?
Your response:
"I saw a video that basically made a statistical claim that since there are thousands or more religions in the world, what are the chances that only one is correct and all the rest are wrong" and it was compelling to me because "it proved" that God doesn't exist". So God is then clearly a fabrication of mankind (based on the various examples in the video of how a religion might be spawned in the first place)".
How well do you think you would fare in this interview based on what you are displaying as proof that God doesn't exist and was created by man no less.......................?
Your article on how Christianity can likely make a nut case of fear and anxiety out of an otherwise normal person is not convincing to me because it only recognizes one aspect of God, and leaves out His divine love, His forgiveness, His patience, and His dying on the cross in our place to forgive all our sins if we accept him as our lord and savior. In other words, the woman who became a wreck really didn't understand, and it might even be argued that she never even must have tried to understand the full claims of the Bible in the first place.
If you honestly ask yourself, "have I really sought to understand the God of the Bible given its number 1 standing in the world as its most accepted religion" or have I really sought to live my life my own way and not be held accountable to anyone but myself for what I want to do. In other words, I just want to be in charge of my own life without have to answer to any one else - i.e. I want to be my own god? Therein we come to the claim of the Bible again that "no one seeks after Him, no not even one" again. The truth is that unless the Holy Spirit works in our lives to cause us to what to inquire about God, no one will. And if the Bible says that, then how would anyone be "saved" unless God intervenes in our life, and if so, why then would we be held accountable to God for our not believing if he doesn't intervene to help make it happen?
I only put that out there to give one example of the need to look into the extradinary claims of the Bible and think about them. Romans 8 & 9 go into this in detail. The answers in those chapters are truly amazing and put things into great perspective. These two parts of the Bible took me years to reflect on and understand. For example, I wanted to understand how "free will" comes into play.
Also, if you really want to know how to test the Bible to see if it is true, and you are indeed considering eternity and your outcome, I would challenge you to put its guidelines to the test and see whether the promise of Galatians 5:22-23, very importantly, appear in your life over time by implementing them in your life and then evaluating the result.
If you wondered whether a Toyota or Mercedes or other make was any good, you would put them to the test to see how each holds up, or at least consult the information available on what testers and consumers found, and use that as a guideline. As Mercedess arrogantly claims, you should own "the best or nothing". Don't allow yourself to be fooled, as I too desired greatly.
All the best should you choose to really want to understand the claims of the Bible. That is what I have done over the last 45 years of my 70 years, and I have never regretted a moment of my ultimate decision finally to believe it fully in 1972. Sincerely.
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polara71
Old Man with a Hat
It all sounds ridiculous to me Steve, simply absurd. As I shake my head and wonder in disbelief how anyone can believe in the fairy tale but, they're entitled
You know Dave, I guess I find it at least equally ridiculous to believe that all of the universe, all the way down to our own bodies are anything but the work of a creator with a skilled "hand" involved. That everything just evolved due to random chance is a lot harder for me to believe than faith in the Lord.
Let me say also, in my early years on this planet, I thought all Christians were just dumb and weak, and needed a crutch to get through this world and was totally skeptical of the Bible and its claims, much like you seem to be. But events in my life literally forced me to check the Bible out and I really wanted to find fault big time. I spent 2 1/2 years going through it in detail cause that is the kind of guy I am - I really hate to be taken. But after this period, I saw how it explains the plan of God and came to the conclusion that no man wrote this book. In putting its tenets to work in my life, I have found over time they are utterly reliable and just plain work. I couldn't be the happy guy I am today, without the Lord in charge of my life. And I ain't no dummy either (and I am saying that with humility, really).
I would like to meet you someday and explain things a lot more and just share why I really do believe it now, if you want to listen. But I will never push my beliefs on anyone or button hole anyone.
But in any case, I do like you as I said before and respect you and also respect your point of view. Even if you don't want to hear anything regarding the Bible. I am sure we can get along very well just talking C bodies! All the best!
Steve
Ripinator
Old Man with a Hat
If you are talking about modern "Christian Music", I agree. But when it comes to the old hymns, I am always moved and inspired by them.
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I am talking about the modern stuff.
Believe it or not, I can appreciate the real competence of the group Metallica, for example, a very popular group after many years with every concert still sold out. But what I can not appreciate about them is the dark side of their music, when death, blood and dying are so heavily empahsized in many of their works.
If anything, I find Christian music uneven at best, with some songs just pathetic and others well done and inspirational, to me. But we are all different, and I can accept that folks have reasons for what they like and don't like and don't all like the same stuff.
If anything, I find Christian music uneven at best, with some songs just pathetic and others well done and inspirational, to me. But we are all different, and I can accept that folks have reasons for what they like and don't like and don't all like the same stuff.
polara71
Old Man with a Hat
I always listen and always rebut . I almost leave them running away screaming. I am surprised, arent you an engineer or have that big ol degree thingy? The universe happened just because, no need to think something created it besides science. I do hope I find myself in your scenario you presented to Fred. I will leave that particular being holding his head and turning in his GOD card
Not a problem Dave, I would be just like you except for some intervention in my life that turned it around - all for the better. Yes I have had some 7 years of higher education (a college puke in today's jargon). But that doesn't swell my head. I am really down to earth, and treat every one just like I want to be treated as much as I can. And I really can defend my self as to what I believe. I just didn't accept some preacher's invitation to "come forward" on faith alone. Take care.
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Fratzog
Old Man with a Hat
Sorry for my delay in response but I was away on the weekend (Moparfest) and just catching up.
What I will do is try to address some of "God's" questions.
The following quote summarises my position.
"Faith is the surrender of the mind; it’s the surrender of reason, it’s the surrender of the only thing that makes us different from other mammals.
It’s our need to believe, and to surrender our skepticism and our reason,
our yearning to discard that and put all our trust or faith in
someone or something, that is the sinister thing to me.
Of all the supposed virtues, faith must be the most overrated." ~ Christopher Hitchens
I might add that experience has taught me the futility of trying to reason with the faithful.
Can't do that since the whole scenario is completely implausible. See Dave's comment.
What I will do is try to address some of "God's" questions.
Man has evolved the most capable brain among all animals and the ability to reason and use science to determine what happened in the past. I assume you've heard of plate tectonics, astrophysics, geology and evolution?
Sorry I won't bite. The onus is on the religious person making the incredible claims (virgin birth, raising the dead, rising from the dead, parting the sea etc.) to substantiate them with credible evidence. You can't produce a shred. I will throw my hat in the ring with science every time.
The following quote summarises my position.
"Faith is the surrender of the mind; it’s the surrender of reason, it’s the surrender of the only thing that makes us different from other mammals.
It’s our need to believe, and to surrender our skepticism and our reason,
our yearning to discard that and put all our trust or faith in
someone or something, that is the sinister thing to me.
Of all the supposed virtues, faith must be the most overrated." ~ Christopher Hitchens
I might add that experience has taught me the futility of trying to reason with the faithful.
I understand your point of view, as I once shared something similar. But God intervened in my life and showed me a better way and I have never regretted it and never want to go back. And I have tested it thoroughly in the last 45 years and have not come up wanting. All I was trying to say in my respectful response to your question is that I personally didn't find the 16 minute video that the narrator was touting as having constituted a "proof" there is no God as incredibly weak - rather it was just a statistical argument that didn't compel me. But at least I heard you out.
Just like using the word "science" to explain the origin of the world. It makes no sense to me, as where did this "science" come from?
But hey, if you are content just as you are, why would you want to change anything you believe? It seems the Christian viewpoint bothers you or annoys you based on your casual remarks about something even vaguely showing up in a post, but inwardly, I wonder why? If you want to be an atheist, then so be it. That is fine with me and I have no reaction to it. You asked for comment, and I was just trying to be honest as to my reaction.
Life is such that we all have to make choices and live by the consequences. I have experienced both sides of the argument in depth and made my choice. In that respect, life is fair enough to allow us to choose our will and not force us into anything.
Best wishes. Truly.
Just like using the word "science" to explain the origin of the world. It makes no sense to me, as where did this "science" come from?
But hey, if you are content just as you are, why would you want to change anything you believe? It seems the Christian viewpoint bothers you or annoys you based on your casual remarks about something even vaguely showing up in a post, but inwardly, I wonder why? If you want to be an atheist, then so be it. That is fine with me and I have no reaction to it. You asked for comment, and I was just trying to be honest as to my reaction.
Life is such that we all have to make choices and live by the consequences. I have experienced both sides of the argument in depth and made my choice. In that respect, life is fair enough to allow us to choose our will and not force us into anything.
Best wishes. Truly.
All I can say is there seems to be a lot of self pride in that last presumption! I know I sure won't be so certain, calm or reasoned. Of course we might just die and that is it - we could find there was no real purpose for our lives and the time we spent on this planet. Like Solomon once mused, "everything is meaningless".
We have each had our say in this matter so I think we understand each other's points of view, and I at least respect your viewpoints since you have each considered them more than the average person it seems.
Maybe time to get back on track with our C bodies - we can generally agree on that topic in our respective lives. And we got through all this with no name calling or getting ticked off too much! Now that is a miracle!
Fratzog
Old Man with a Hat
Although I strongly disagree with your opinion make no mistake I respect it. I also consider myself fortunate to live where divergent opinions are tolerated and not repressed. As the saying goes "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" E. B. Hall
drpreposterous
Well-Known Member
Even as a life-long Democrat I can recognize we sort of threw out the baby with the bath water. No one here, I figure, will disagree that the Civil Rights and Fair Housing/employment legislation that ended legal discrimination weren't marches forward. And the idea of equal opportunities for women, questioning authority (especially when it came to sending young people into battle) were positive steps for our society. But along the way we lost things...
- It's undeniably a cruder, more vulgar and crass culture.
- I saw a study that showed 67 percent of pop songs on romance in 1964 stressed the concepts of forever/commitment. By 2005 that had flipped to 67 percent being about "forget about tomorrow, baby--let's just think about tonight..."
- We are no longer content with simply questioning authority--we openly scorn it, distrust it and fail to listen to it in a larger measure than we did 50 years ago.
- Community cohesiveness--symbolized and upheld by churches and clubs from the Elks to the Boy Scouts--has disappeared. Our children hide behind video and phone screens, scarcely knowing how to talk to one another and engaging in cyber bullying.
- Marriage is rapidly falling out of fashion
- And many people (yes, even Dems) feel personal responsibility has eclipsed by a race to claim who is the biggest victim of society's ills.
- The left seems to have been hijacked by the anti-fa--a stupid bunch that sees oppression everywhere but in themselves.
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