C body HP 383 - same as B body??

[CBODY67]

I found the a/c exceptions listed for 1969, but Dodge was more open about it than Plymouth in the Data Books. Didn't find similar in 1968 Plymouth Data Book, just the exception of factory a/c not allowed on 383 2bbl 4-spd B-bodies and GTX 4-spds. Nothing on 383 4bbls noted. AND nothing about it listed in the Plymouth sales brochures.

What I did notice in the Plymouth literature was an engine listing for 1968, which listed the camshaft versions. The 383/330 was termed "Special" (as was the 383/290 2bbl) and the 383/335 was termed "High Performance", plus other words like "high lift, long duration" for the 383/335 cam. Which equated to the "Special" cam being the 256/260 item and the "High Performance" cam being the 268/284 item.

So, my knowledge expanded,
Thanks,
CBODY67

 

[CBODY67]

Most of the HP engines had some kind of air induction in the hood. They couldn't fit a V2 and that big air cleaner in the same space. Here's a page out of the 68 Chrysler book and the 68 Dodge (SuperBee) book. The specs look the same between the 2 divisions. View attachment 680596View attachment 680597View attachment 680598

I knew about the a/c restrictions related to the cool air induction systems, plus 440 6bbls and HEMIs. That big RV2 compressor got in the way.

There was on yellow '70 Charger that went through Mecum about about 2007 or so. Yellow 4-spd car with a 440. When I saw it, it was at a customer's body shop for some little stuff. Being a 6bbl car, I looked at it and determined that it was not a factory 6bbl car. It had factory air for which the front of the air cleaner base had been artfully and expertly trimmed to allow for the RV2 and lines. With some black paint on the edges, it would have looked better than factory.

The OTHER thing about that was a completely BLANK data plate! Which had been there when the car got its last repaint, so the paint thickness was observed to be "all the same". It did have a normal VIN plate, though. To me, THAT blank data plate raised more questions about the car!

To look at the car, it looked like a factory 440 car w/factory air cond that a correct 6bbl induction system and air cleaner had been added to it. Then carefully trimming the bottom plate of the air cleaner for a/c line and compressor clearance.

Was the issue with 4-spd 440/375 motors not being eligible for factory a/c related to a sales orientation of the car being used more for racing purposes (with deeper rear gear ratios), although the automatics could have been used for the same things, but no restrictions? Just as a person with a 4-spd could miss a gear, so could a driver shifting from "2" in to "N" by mistake, in the heat of battle with a TF? FWIW

I could not question the body shop guys about the car as they knew little about it, other than what they saw. I didn't know or desire to know the person that had bought it from the Mecum auction, either. So that's where things ended.

Might it have been a "Body in White" car into which all of a wrecked car's components been transferred into? Which was the only scenario I could suspect might apply, to explain the blank data plate. BUT that would have been a huge amount of work!

Thanks,
CBODY67

 

[69CoronetRT]

Now, like I stated, back then we just knew what we read in magazines and sales brochures. Be that as it may. All of the "numbers match" stuff came in later years.

BUT if 383/335s did not have factory a/c in the earlier years, what about a '68 Road Runner I saw in west Texas in July, with the windows rolled up? The reason I noticed that car was that it had power windows, which I felt was unusual for a Road Runner to have. So, was that car really a 383/330 car in disguise?

Would the no factory air issue on 383/335 cars have been in the order guides and noted in the sales lit, too? I do recall some restrictions, which I have not understood, as to manual trans 440 Chargers not getting factory a/c, though.

Again, NOT to try to doubt your research and related documentation.

CBODY67

Power windows would have been available on a 68 RR hard top. That would be irrelevant to which engine assembly the car received.

You could order A/C with a Road Runner but you would get the 330 horse assembly in 68 and 69. The change to a 330 horse assembly is listed in the 69 data book. I'm not as familiar with any notification in 68. It could be there....

 

[CBODY67]

Yes, I found the page ref'd above. Found no such page on Hamtramck Historical for 1968, for some reason. On the Engines page of the 1969 Dodge Coronet data book, it plainly said the 383/330 was for a/c cars, rather than the 383/335. As I mentioned, Dodge was more open with that information. Back then, that would have meant nothing to us as to what was in the motor, as to camshaft.

The question would be "Why the change in 1970?"

In looking at the various equipment specs, it makes me wonder just how much more power the 268/284 cam was worth when compared to the 256/260 cam, and the 252/252 cam before that. Or the 1964 era 4bbl cams. How much real power the 1.74" exhaust valves provided AND the up-swept exh manifolds.

THEN consider that my '67 Newport 383 4bbl car came with a single exhaust (as did the '65 Chrysler 383 4bbls, but with the 252/252 cam, I believe) and still carried the 383/325 power rating as the same engine in a Plymouth Fury or Dodge Polara, which had factory dual exhausts.

I need to dig out my old data from 1960s road tests and converting the figures to a standardized 4000lb car with 3.23 gears and H78x14 tires, I guess. That will have to wait, though, for other things to happen first. Which could take a while.

Take care,
CBODY67

 

[69CoronetRT]

I knew about the a/c restrictions related to the cool air induction systems, plus 440 6bbls and HEMIs. That big RV2 compressor got in the way.

There was on yellow '70 Charger that went through Mecum about about 2007 or so. Yellow 4-spd car with a 440. When I saw it, it was at a customer's body shop for some little stuff. Being a 6bbl car, I looked at it and determined that it was not a factory 6bbl car. It had factory air for which the front of the air cleaner base had been artfully and expertly trimmed to allow for the RV2 and lines. With some black paint on the edges, it would have looked better than factory.

The OTHER thing about that was a completely BLANK data plate! Which had been there when the car got its last repaint, so the paint thickness was observed to be "all the same". It did have a normal VIN plate, though. To me, THAT blank data plate raised more questions about the car!

To look at the car, it looked like a factory 440 car w/factory air cond that a correct 6bbl induction system and air cleaner had been added to it. Then carefully trimming the bottom plate of the air cleaner for a/c line and compressor clearance.

Was the issue with 4-spd 440/375 motors not being eligible for factory a/c related to a sales orientation of the car being used more for racing purposes (with deeper rear gear ratios), although the automatics could have been used for the same things, but no restrictions? Just as a person with a 4-spd could miss a gear, so could a driver shifting from "2" in to "N" by mistake, in the heat of battle with a TF? FWIW

I could not question the body shop guys about the car as they knew little about it, other than what they saw. I didn't know or desire to know the person that had bought it from the Mecum auction, either. So that's where things ended.

Might it have been a "Body in White" car into which all of a wrecked car's components been transferred into? Which was the only scenario I could suspect might apply, to explain the blank data plate. BUT that would have been a huge amount of work!

Thanks,
CBODY67

There was a bogus Charger floating around for a while about that time. I can't find the info on it right now but tie as like a 4406 with a/c and cruise. It was at Carlisle one year. The fender tag was SO fake. ECS made the door sticker and publicly disavowed it as they were presented with fake documents before they made the sticker. It was a total fraud of a car.

A 440-4 HP with a/c and automatic was always available. You could even get a 440-4 with a/c and 3:55 gears. Air conditioning with a 440 and four speed was never allowed.

 

[69CoronetRT]

The question would be "Why the change in 1970?"

70 applications become more complicated with the addition of the E body platform, various emissions requirements, fresh air hoods, and a/c.

It's likely it was easier to use a common assembly in the '70 B/E body platform to simplify the number of assemblies required to meet all the parameters. It would have been the last year for the 335 horse assembly. The number of cars built with the assembly would be down meaning the number of warranty issues would be down. Cost/benefit analysis may have been a factor in the decision. Hard to know

 

[CBODY67]

There was a bogus Charger floating around for a while about that time. I can't find the info on it right now but tie as like a 4406 with a/c and cruise. It was at Carlisle one year. The fender tag was SO fake. ECS made the door sticker and publicly disavowed it as they were presented with fake documents before they made the sticker. It was a total fraud of a car.

A 440-4 HP with a/c and automatic was always available. You could even get a 440-4 with a/c and 3:55 gears. Air conditioning with a 440 and four speed was never allowed.

The car I saw did not have cruise.

 

[Clover]

There are 2bbl and 4bbl exhaust manifolds. There are no HP specific exhaust manifolds. People waste a lot of time and money looking for the elusive 'HP" exhaust manifolds.

Incorrect. Lots of four-barrel engines got the standard exhaust manifolds. Only HP engines got the upswept manifolds. This is true for A, B and C bodies.

 

[detmatt]

Incorrect. Lots of four-barrel engines got the standard exhaust manifolds. Only HP engines got the upswept manifolds. This is true for A, B and C bodies.

True for the 440 for sure.

 

[CBODY67]

I concur, a rated 383/335 never made it into a C-body. Only the 383/330 and prior 383/325 and prior 383/315 did.

The normal 383 4bbls still had enough guts to catch speeding Corvettes, from back then. Might not be able to out-accelerate them, but they could catch them soon enough on top end.

CBODY67

@skinsman, your point of disagreement is?

Just curious. No more, no less.
C BODY67

 

[CBODY67]

Incorrect. Lots of four-barrel engines got the standard exhaust manifolds. Only HP engines got the upswept manifolds. This is true for A, B and C bodies.

My '70 Monaco Brougham 383 "N" has the upswept HP manifolds. Look at the engine illustrations from the Order Guide, above. I bought the car in 1975 with 80K miles, unmolested or modified.

Enjoy,
CBODY67

 

[CBODY67]

Please re-read my earlier post, the section where I discussed how Chrysler used the term "High Performance" in their literature. THEN the section where I mentioned "Camshaft" specs.

The ONLY "High Performance" non-HEMI cam is the 1967+ 268/284 cam, whether it was in a 383 or 440. Those engines DID come with the upswept exhaust manifolds, dubbed "HP" manifolds. Those engines were identified by the "N" VIN designation in B- and E-body cars with 383 HP engines.

If the engine did not have the upswept "HP" exh manifolds, it had the same exh manifolds as the 2bbl motors did, even on the 383/325 engine.

Where things seem to "fall apart" is that Chrysler also identified 383 4bbls (normal 256/260 cam engines) as "High Performance" in the VIN decode for C-body cars. So if you use the definition of "N" from the smaller cars, you automatically suspect the 383/330 engine had the HP (aka '67 GTX) cam, but it did not. Nor did, as the Dodge data book and '69-'70 Plymouth data books indicate, 383/335 w/factory a/c cars (including Road Runners and Super Bees. Those cars getting the 303/330 cam with the 256/260 cam instead, but also the unsilenced air claner and upswept exh manifolds which the 383/335 normally got.

So, basically, the orientation of the Chrysler nomenclature seems to be "Normal Performance" = 2bbl engines. "High Performance" can mean ANYTHING above that. Whether with the 1967+ "Standard Cam" 383 4bbl (383/325, 256/260 cam, single or dual exhaust) or the "Special Cam 383/335 4bbl (383/335, 268/284 cam, dual exh).

Which ALSO means there were a LOT of 383 4bbl cars out there with the 383/330 engines, parading as 383/335 engines, that won a lot of street races and such. AND catching speeders, too.

Enjoy!
CBODY67