Cam shaft advice

Moose440

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Hey guys I’m replacing my cam in my 68 Newport and would like to know what is the biggest cam you can fit with flat top pistons?? specs are 440 stock bottom end .30 over with 440 source aluminum heads 2.14 intake 1.810 exhaust 3/8th pushrods with hydraulic flat tappet lifters 471 lift as of right now. Heads where milled to 76cc chambers.
 
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The old, original Purple Shaft cam had about .484" lift, as I recall. .471" currently, with the 1.6 rocker arms? What exhasut system item At what lift do those heads' ports max out in flow, but at the 90% level?

You can add lift and duration, but unless the exhaust ports and the exhaust system on the engine and under the car can't handle that extra flow, you've gained nothing other than bragging rights related to "size". I suspect that with .471 lift now, you're pretty close to "the limit" in lift? Are the pistons complete "flat tops" or do they have some valve cut-outs?

Your ultimate goal? Just curious . . .

CBODY67
 
What's the CH of the replacement pistons? How far in the hole are they?
 
In addition to the points mentioned by CBODY67, you need to figure out where the piston sits relative to the top of the bore as this will effect the amount of lift available. The timing of the camshaft also effects total lift potential. Also you need to figure in the thickness of the head gasket. When you get done with all that, you will need a higher stall speed on the transmission convertor, a modified valve body and a modified governor to take advantage of the peak of the torque curve and the increased horsepower. Most big cams also need either 3.23 or 3.55 gearing. Many of the lift potential calculators are based on the stock iron head, the shape of aftermarket head chambers are sometimes different and the length of after market push rods also effects this calculation. Summit racing can probably help with the set up if you contact their technical services.

Dave
 
Here's one dynamic which is usually not considered in these "size" calculations. That is the quality of the air flow at these higher lifts.

So we've got intake valves that are the biggest that can be stuffed into the available intake valve space. Only .06" bigger than the normal valves. Exhaust valves that are similarly the biggest possible. Both of which leave the real estate between them as very minimal. As flow bench tests indicate more air flow potential with them.

Now consider the air flow at various lift values of the valve. Does the flow start strong at .100" or does it take .400" before it really comes alive, compared to a stock head? All of these comparisons affect total cylinder filling capabilities. More air at the lower lift points will better fill a cylinder than huge flows at the .400" lift point, by comparison. Which means that "less cam" can be possible, with better street driveability and a possibly broader torque curve.

On the other hand, a faster lift curve (which can be assisted by the higher-ratio than stock rocker arms) can get the port to "full volume" quicker, which might help with a controlled turbulance in the chamber itself.

Big ports also aid the high-lift flow, but can result in "lazy flow" at the lower lift and rpm levels.

When you look at the combustion dynamics research in the middle 1950s (when the "modern" V-8s were being designed), one of the strategies was "stratified charge", where the richest mixture would be near the center of the chamber, hopefully where the spark plug was located, easier to fire-off, which would then fire-off the outer rings of less-dense fuel in the chamber. Which resulted in the later swirl strategy of the 1980s. Seems like Ford was one of the operatives in this research, according to magazine articles on such?

The Ford Y-block V-8 was a competive engine to the Small Block Chevy, but the Ford only achieved it's potential with a supercharger on it. Why? Intake valve shrouding, which was probably there to induce "swirl" into the chamber. As the Chevy V-8 was enlarged, valve sizes also increased, as possible. But when the breathing needs resulted in the famous 2.02" intake valves, little additional flow resulted. UNTIL an additional cut was made to help un-shroud the intake valve to the "close side" of the combustion chamber's edge. Which was done at the factory, on the same castings as the lower-performance cylinder heads. So, it was that extra cut that helped the larger valves to make more real power in the higher rpm levels the engine was capable of.

Not unlike the "clearancing" of the upper cylinder bore to put 340 heads on a 318, as mentioned in the LA Engine Race Manual, as I recall. Not a huge amount, and certainly above where the compression ring rides at the top of the bore, but still needed for the "large intake valve" clearance.

So, my point is, that unless the larger intake valve is completely unshrouded, compared to the stock size 2.08 intake valve, the real advantage of the larger valve might be lost, or not used to its possible full potential. I also understand that in many race applications, just 2 more horsepower might make the difference between winning and not. But considering the approx 20% power absorption of the drivetrain past the flywheel, such power increases on the dyno might become less significant in real performance increases.

Better getting a handle on combustion chamber turbulance has been a focus of engine designes for many years, now. Understanding and compensating for such things means that the air in the chamber, as the piston moves upward toward TDC, prior to the "big bang", keeping more of the fuel in suspension, makes for more horsepower and fewer exhaust emissions via a more complete burn activity. Which can also mean less fuel in the fuel curve for enahced efficiencies, for equal or more power output.

In later years, it appears that when the intake valve opens has been modulated a bit, compared to earlier times. The same might be true of when the exhaust valve opens, too.

Yet the best intake ports and exhaust ports can't work well unless what the exhaust flow encounters "after the fact" also works well. With the end result being less reversion (and internal EGR) in the chamber during "overlap", which due to pressure pulse reversion in the intake manifold, can dilute any fresh intake charge entering the combustion chamber.

Exhaust port deficiencies can be compensated for with more duration on the exhaust lobes, up to a certain point. To me, when looking at cam specs and rocker ratios, it can become evident when an exhaut port is not as good as it should be when you see much longer (than generally accepted as "normal") exhaust duration and higher rockder arm ratios. Although the rocker ratios can be a desired compensating design factor for a desired lower-lift cam lobe situation, by the engine's design team. This can also be a way to get the valve open quicker, too, if the ports might not flow too well at lower lifts, I suspect. There can be a few other dynamics in using higher-than-designed rocker arm ratios too, fwiw.

Better quality of air flow/turbulance in the combustion chamber could well be better than just going for max flow numbers on a flow bench. Size can matter, but sometimes too much can result in less benefit than suspected, compared to "the norm" of factory specs.

I'm fully aware that Chrysler recommended the larger valves, many decades ago. But I suspect that in later times, the larger exhaust valve (with increases in port flow) by itself, in concert with a better total exhaust system past the cylinder head, might be a better way to do things. Just my theory of things.

Enjoy!
CBODY67
 
Thanks guys. I have hooker long tubes with 3 inch exhaust the max lift for my springs is 510. I have a new problem. I herd a clattering sound like a lifter tick pulled it apart and my cam is walking over a 1/4 inch forward and back. I just had the motor done over last winter. The guy who built it is in a different state now. I have no idea what happened to cause this cam bolt is tight.
 
My advice for cam selection (other than stock) is to call the cam company of choice and tell them what you have. Second piece of advice is "less is more", especially in a heavy car.

The camshaft walking back and forth sounds funny. First thing I would suspect is the cam bolt is loose. IIRC, there isn't that much room for 1/4" travel under the timing cover, (although I used to make teflon cam buttons for these cars 40 years ago so you'd think I'd know, LOL) It's also hard to get that much fore and aft movement without the chain being very worn... and even then, I kind of doubt it.
 
On the cam lobes, there is a taper, front to back, as the lifter "bottom" is not completely flat, which serves two purposes, with a flat-tappet cam. One is to cause the lifters to rotate, equalizing wear on them and the cam lobes. Plus to also "locate" the cam in the block, other than what the back surface of the camshaft sproket can do.

I suspect there should be a Welsh Plug at the back of the block, to plug a hole where the cam bearing machining happened. Or should it be a normal "freeze plug"? That's something of a rear camshaft travel limiter, IF it canolmore that much to start with.

Camshaft "buttons", whether made of aluminum or later teflon, were used on roller-tapper motors. The lobes on a rollet-tappet cam are completely flat, no taper, so the button is used to limit the cam's normal "travel", front to back, as rpms change and such. Seems like they used to have a complimentary aluminum-cast front cover to go along with the buttons? Or were those covers more for cosmetic reasons?

I don't recall if the taper is toward the front or rear, but suspect the front so that the cam sproket will tend to wear against the block surface, as the cam is pushed rearward by the lifters.

Keep us posted,
CBODY67
 
The 440 HP cam w/ a cam teflon thrust button and a carb jet change will get you there w/ good drivability w/ HP valve springs. Having said that w/ aftermarket heads always check your valve to block and piston clearances.
 
Flat tappet cam is pushed rearward by the taper (mentioned above) ground into the lobes. The thrust surface is on the rear of the cam sprocket, it does not move forward unless it is shot/worn-out.
 
I can’t even put pics up. And I don’t have a url I don’t know how to do this I’m on my cell phone. I’m going to pull the motor this week I’m hoping.
 
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