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Can you help a Small block Chevy guy understand a 1962 Chrysler 413 with cross-ram manifold? - compression and pump gas?
- Thread starter Treozen
- Start date
Treozen
New Member
LOL - Well, I bought the car, so I guess I get to find out how much fun / frustration can be found in a 1961 Chrysler.
The biggest difference between 61 and 62 Chryslers is that in 61 the cast iron Torqueflite trans was in use, while in 62 a change was made to use the new aluminum case Torqueflite. 61 engines have a different crankshaft than 62 engines because of the different way they connect up to the two different transmissions. If you have a 62 engine, whoever did the transplant may have also put an aluminum transmission from 62 in along with it, otherwise they would have had to change the crankshaft to properly mount up to a cast iron trans.
The biggest difference between 61 and 62 Chryslers is that in 61 the cast iron Torqueflite trans was in use, while in 62 a change was made to use the new aluminum case Torqueflite. 61 engines have a different crankshaft than 62 engines because of the different way they connect up to the two different transmissions. If you have a 62 engine, whoever did the transplant may have also put an aluminum transmission from 62 in along with it, otherwise they would have had to change the crankshaft to properly mount up to a cast iron trans.
Ram Fury
Member
Lads --
I'm an old fud that not only had a Fury with the ram-induction engine back in 1960-1964, but I also was fortunate to have acquired another back in 2000 (which is still in my stable). Some points of interest:
- I run the highest octane unleaded but with every fillup I also add about five gallons of 110 octane leaded racing fuel ($8.99 per gal. last month) to the tank. The engine will survive on lower octane gas, but the plugs tend to foul very easily with it.
- A few years back, I did pull the heads and had the valve seats hardened just in case.
- When cold, raw fuel tends to puddle in the plenum chambers under the carbs causing the mill to stall when trying to accelerate from a stop (like at a light); once warm, no problem.
- Regarding the ram-induction set-up in the early 1960s, the so-called "short ram" was almost identical to the "long ram" as both sets of tubes were the same length; however, the internal passages on the short rams had a tuned length of 15 inches. The shorts can be identified by the external valleys on the tubes that extend 15" from the cylinder heads after which the tube is smooth all the way to the carb. These short rams were optional on the later Letter Cars (1962-1964). Incidentally, back in the old days, it was possible to modify the long rams by cutting away the internal passages; this was even permitted for the NHRA and AHRA stock classes and really let those babies scream.
- That dual point distributer was and is a weak point. I replaced the one in my current ram car with a later transistorized MOPAR ignition and put the old job in a box in my garage.
- The fender wall cut-outs have generated some controversy as they are either (a) to facilitate production in order to drop the engine in or (b) to make access for plug changes more easy; I tend to subscribe to the latter as my current Big-Tailed Beast does not have them but the build record shows it came off the line in St. Louis as a ram car. Also, back in 1960 or so my dealer wanted five bucks a plug to change them -- not every bay in the shops in those days had a lift so the front end was jacked up and the front wheels pulled to get in.
BTW, in 1960, 1577 Plymouths came off the production lines with the "SonoRamic Commando" (don't you love that moniker?!).
The photo shows the Sonoramic Commando in my car.
Joe Godec
'57 Chrysler 300C, '60 Fury SonoRamic, '65 Fuelie Vette, '65 Sport Fury 426S/4-speed
I'm an old fud that not only had a Fury with the ram-induction engine back in 1960-1964, but I also was fortunate to have acquired another back in 2000 (which is still in my stable). Some points of interest:
- I run the highest octane unleaded but with every fillup I also add about five gallons of 110 octane leaded racing fuel ($8.99 per gal. last month) to the tank. The engine will survive on lower octane gas, but the plugs tend to foul very easily with it.
- A few years back, I did pull the heads and had the valve seats hardened just in case.
- When cold, raw fuel tends to puddle in the plenum chambers under the carbs causing the mill to stall when trying to accelerate from a stop (like at a light); once warm, no problem.
- Regarding the ram-induction set-up in the early 1960s, the so-called "short ram" was almost identical to the "long ram" as both sets of tubes were the same length; however, the internal passages on the short rams had a tuned length of 15 inches. The shorts can be identified by the external valleys on the tubes that extend 15" from the cylinder heads after which the tube is smooth all the way to the carb. These short rams were optional on the later Letter Cars (1962-1964). Incidentally, back in the old days, it was possible to modify the long rams by cutting away the internal passages; this was even permitted for the NHRA and AHRA stock classes and really let those babies scream.
- That dual point distributer was and is a weak point. I replaced the one in my current ram car with a later transistorized MOPAR ignition and put the old job in a box in my garage.
- The fender wall cut-outs have generated some controversy as they are either (a) to facilitate production in order to drop the engine in or (b) to make access for plug changes more easy; I tend to subscribe to the latter as my current Big-Tailed Beast does not have them but the build record shows it came off the line in St. Louis as a ram car. Also, back in 1960 or so my dealer wanted five bucks a plug to change them -- not every bay in the shops in those days had a lift so the front end was jacked up and the front wheels pulled to get in.
BTW, in 1960, 1577 Plymouths came off the production lines with the "SonoRamic Commando" (don't you love that moniker?!).
The photo shows the Sonoramic Commando in my car.
Joe Godec
'57 Chrysler 300C, '60 Fury SonoRamic, '65 Fuelie Vette, '65 Sport Fury 426S/4-speed
Treozen
New Member
I think it has the '62 transmission. From what I can see of the transmission, it looks like an aluminum case, and I'm 96% sure the engine is 1962, so that would be the obvious solution.
I thought perhaps I'd just buy a case of octane booster and run a bottle with every fill up. Supposed to boost the octane 4 points, so that would give me 96 octane.
Can you remember which MOPAR electronic unit you used? My go-to is normally Pertronix, but I'd use a MOPAR unit if there's one out there that is easy to install and works well.
Ram Fury
Member
Can you remember which MOPAR electronic unit you used? My go-to is normally Pertronix, but I'd use a MOPAR unit if there's one out there that is easy to install and works well.
Tre --
This happened back in about 2002 when that old dual point distributor conked out while I was driving to a car show about 60 miles away and I thought I might as well just go all out with a transistorized system. I didn't want to go the Pertronix route at the time because I thought the MOPAR would be safer in the event I had a problem out of town (it's not a daily driver but I put it on the road quite a bit). Checking with the guys at Mancini Racing, I got the MOPAR unit and bigger coil that they recommended. Unfortunately, the car is presently tucked away at my son's shop (I alternate cars in my garage depending on my mood), so I can't easily check the model number, and no doubt it's been superseded after all these years (20+).
Since you're just into the MOPAR scene, I don't know if you're aware that the corporation had a number of wedge engines, which to a great extent have interchangeable parts. However, there are basically two different wedge blocks: the B Series (350, 361, 383, and 400) and the RB Series (primarily the 413, 426, and 440, although there was a RB 383 in '59-'60 used for Windsors and Saratogas). Chrysler wanted a taller block for the longer stroke of the 413 and its brothers, so I just want to make sure you don't get something intended solely for a B block and which won't fit a RB.
Joe
Tre --
This happened back in about 2002 when that old dual point distributor conked out while I was driving to a car show about 60 miles away and I thought I might as well just go all out with a transistorized system. I didn't want to go the Pertronix route at the time because I thought the MOPAR would be safer in the event I had a problem out of town (it's not a daily driver but I put it on the road quite a bit). Checking with the guys at Mancini Racing, I got the MOPAR unit and bigger coil that they recommended. Unfortunately, the car is presently tucked away at my son's shop (I alternate cars in my garage depending on my mood), so I can't easily check the model number, and no doubt it's been superseded after all these years (20+).
Since you're just into the MOPAR scene, I don't know if you're aware that the corporation had a number of wedge engines, which to a great extent have interchangeable parts. However, there are basically two different wedge blocks: the B Series (350, 361, 383, and 400) and the RB Series (primarily the 413, 426, and 440, although there was a RB 383 in '59-'60 used for Windsors and Saratogas). Chrysler wanted a taller block for the longer stroke of the 413 and its brothers, so I just want to make sure you don't get something intended solely for a B block and which won't fit a RB.
Joe
There are "Mopar" type units out there, but they really are offshore built units with questionable dependability.
Here's the deal... Back in the early 70's, Chrysler started putting a transistor type electronic ignition in their production cars. They got smart and offered a kit with distributor, ECU along with related wiring and ballast resistor. All was good... They were just as reliable as the production cars.
Then lots of things happened and Chrysler realized they weren't selling '68 Roadrunners any more and killed off a lot of their aftermarket parts, like the electronic ignition. Along came Mancini and others who had a market for parts like this and long story short, they started importing the parts for a kit. In fact, many of the ECUs aren't even built like the original part, we've even seen some with the GM HEI module in them... and now it's come down to the transistor on the outside heatsink is a fake, just so it looks like the original Chrysler part. Their offshore distributors seem OK, but I don't think they are as good a quality as the OEM.
So, while there's been guys that have bought these new kits and not had a problem, there are more failures than there should be and if nothing else, you aren't getting what you think you are.
So, you have a couple choices besides the offshore built kit. One choice is to buy a rebuilt OEM Mopar distributor from @halifaxhops and use a GM HEI module. Personally, I feel that's about the best performer. . You could also pair that distributor with an offshore ECU and just carry a spare ECU.
You could also could keep the dual point.... Honestly, I've run them in different cars now for a lot of miles and they are a really good distributor. The main issue is you can't buy a new condenser that is reliable. Some don't work right out of the box. That means finding NOS USA made condensers (again, @halifaxhops is your go-to).
When all is said and done, the Pertronix with that robust dual point distributor is a really good option. I like the Pertronix Ignitor II myself. That will let you eliminate the ballast resistor and you can run a hotter coil.
Ram Fury
Member
John --
Good point. So much of that replacement stuff nowadays is foreign junk. Found that out especially on a wiper switch on my Vette which came apart in my hands. However, I'm pretty sure that Mancini stuff I got back in 2002 is real MOPAR as it's served well all these years. But I'll have to check and make sure.
Joe
Treozen
New Member
Yea - thanks for that. I am learning steadily - this engine is a 413 (or at least reported as such) and I'm told comes from a similar era New Yorker. I've been speculating its a '62 base don a few small clues, but once the cat gets here I'll try find the various numbers and we'll find out for sure.
I may try keep the points, but my gut tells me I'll go electronic. I typically use Pertronix in everything - sometimes just the small under cap unit, and others the whole distributor, if they offer one. I'll see if I can find the Pertronix part number.
fury fan
Senior Member
That leaded-gas thing isn't a hard/fast rule.
It depends on how the car is driven, and it doesn't happen immediately.
High speed/rpm, towing, and racing cause more damage.
I daily-drove a 68 318 for about 7 years, mostly highway use at 75mph (I read this qualifies as 'hard usage' regarding unhardened seats).
I used 1 gal of 100 low-lead in each tankful for a few years, but I decided to stop because it was a hassle.
I took that 318 from 110k to 180k before I pulled it for running rough.
The heat crossover passages plugged on it twice, and that might've been happening for a 3rd time when I pulled the engine out (I did not do any diagnosis on it).
Were the exh valve seats receeding? Who knows.
My point is - mine survived for a lot of miles.
If you're not going to drive your car hard or for a lot of miles, don't feel obligated to do the lead or hardened seats simply because 'that's what they say'.
Ram Fury
Member
Fury Fan --
True, but why have ram tubes and two big 4-barrels if you don't flog it? My idea of "hard usage" in town is foot to the floor, screaming tires, howling unsilenced air cleaners, roaring exhausts, and billowing smoke while blowing away some "tuner" in a pacific rim SEE-dan with a souped lawnmower engine who thinks he has an automobile. My "hard usage" on the highway is pegging the speedometer -- easy with the 120 mph instruments on my '60 Fury and '65 SF, but close to impossible on the 160 mph unit on my Vette and the 150 job on the C. However, I did get the C's needle to nudge the 150 mark, but it was on a slight downgrade; I did likewise with the Vette on the same stretch of I-25 (south of Colorado Springs). Of course, both are old speedos, so I probably got (maybe) an honest 140-145 out of each. But it sure was fun scaring the hell out of some flatland "touristers." And once, while working the gears on my Vette, I did 106 while in still in third -- at least that's what the officer said I was doing.
As for highway driving at 75 here in Colorado, you're obstructing traffic.
Joe
fury fan
Senior Member
Fair enough.
But if you just bought the car, would you immediately tear down to the short block and send the heads off just to put hardened seats in?
If you did, what else would you do simply because you were in the neighborhood? To the heads, or to the rest of the engine?
It snowballs quickly.
But if you just bought the car, would you immediately tear down to the short block and send the heads off just to put hardened seats in?
If you did, what else would you do simply because you were in the neighborhood? To the heads, or to the rest of the engine?
It snowballs quickly.
Treozen
New Member
Well - I've tied to steer clear of the "since I am here anyway" black hole of car projects in the last several years. I used to be a firm believer in the "might as well...." doctrine, but I now realize how much time, fun and frankly years that sort of thinking steals from you - your car ends up in pieces rather on the road where you can enjoy it oftentimes for way longer than you planned, and sometimes so much so that its hard to even get out from under the added "things" you figured were a good idea three years ago. That's not to say I don't think you should do things that make sense - but I am far more judicious these days on how much sense a thing needs to make ;-)
My priorities with this car will be making it capable of a no-nonsense, reliable (if gas guzzling) 3-hour trip - and that's a trip where speeds max at 65 and the roads are mostly country-two-lane affairs. Whatever it needs to achieve that, gets priority - brakes for example (if the drums end up uninspiring). If I can keep the long ram dual carbs for the "cool" factor, I will - if they annoy me too much - I'll take it off. As she sits today, I believe the car may already be there, or close, but I'll need to get her here and go over all the systems. I do know the front suspension / steering was recently overhauled so that at least should be good - and the brakes were too, but remains to be seen how good the drums actually are.
My priorities with this car will be making it capable of a no-nonsense, reliable (if gas guzzling) 3-hour trip - and that's a trip where speeds max at 65 and the roads are mostly country-two-lane affairs. Whatever it needs to achieve that, gets priority - brakes for example (if the drums end up uninspiring). If I can keep the long ram dual carbs for the "cool" factor, I will - if they annoy me too much - I'll take it off. As she sits today, I believe the car may already be there, or close, but I'll need to get her here and go over all the systems. I do know the front suspension / steering was recently overhauled so that at least should be good - and the brakes were too, but remains to be seen how good the drums actually are.
Just Carbs
Well-Known Member
The big everyday fun with the long ram intake is the massive part throttle mid-rpm/range torque.
70bigblockdodge
Old Man with a Hat
Just drive the damn thing.
Talk, talk, talk.
Drive it and adapt. It's a car, and your not setting out on a round the world voyage.
My Charger has a wrong sized piston in it. '66 block, '70 rotating assembly, as mentioned wrong size 80s replacement piston, 1976 #452 casting heads, a 318 pickup truck transmission and a welded cross pin rear end.
I put 16k miles on the car, ran power tour last year, would leave tomorrow for the West coast. These cars are very durable, just drive it.
Talk, talk, talk.
Drive it and adapt. It's a car, and your not setting out on a round the world voyage.
My Charger has a wrong sized piston in it. '66 block, '70 rotating assembly, as mentioned wrong size 80s replacement piston, 1976 #452 casting heads, a 318 pickup truck transmission and a welded cross pin rear end.
I put 16k miles on the car, ran power tour last year, would leave tomorrow for the West coast. These cars are very durable, just drive it.
Just Carbs
Well-Known Member
Are you sure it's not an AMC?
Ram Fury
Member
Fury Fan --
Regarding "But if you just bought the car, would you immediately tear down to the short block and send the heads off just to put hardened seats in?"
Actually, I almost did. On the Vette, I had the engine completely rebuilt just a few months after I got it and on the ram-inducted '60 Fury, I just pulled the heads to get the valve seats hardened. However, the 375 HP/392 CID mill on the C already had them (plus, it has only 9:1 compression). The 426S on the '65 SF already had been hopped up before I got it (it's got a wild cam, among other mods). Even those all four of those engines are sometimes regarded as "bullet proof" (quoting Jay Leno), I have seen what abusing an engine can do, so I prefer exercising some precautions. It saves embarrassment (like the time I blew a freeze plug during a drag and had to limp home with a shop rag stuffed in the block).
Tre --
No joke about gas guzzling! Each one of those Carter AFB-Ss is feeding its own set of ram tubes, so at the minimum both, repeat both, sets of primaries are pumping gas, even at idle. When you stomp it, watch the gas gauge go down as the speedometer goes up! My '60 Fury has 2.93 gears and even if I behave myself, it gets only about 7 MPG in town and perhaps 11-12 on the highway. Now back in my salad days when I campaigned a similar Fury (except I put Hedman Hedders on its engine and 4.10s in the rear end), you can only imagine the fuel consumption then.
Just Carbs --
I haven't done it with this '60, but back with the other one I had, I'd make a bet with a sucker sitting in the passenger seat: I'd throw a double sawbuck on the floor and if he could pick it up before it shifted gears, he could have it. Never lost from either a standing start or cruising at 30 or so.
70 --
See my comment about gas mileage above.
Joe
Redmax
New Member
I am a member Chrysler 300 Club International and we have a lot of experience with ram cars. I would not change the camshaft as many in our club have tried it with little success. The ram system is very sensitive to the timing of the intake valve closing. The factory made a special cam and timing gear to retard the cam timing 4 degrees just for the long ram cars (60-61). The short rams cars are different (63-64) as they come on the power band higher but they have a different cam, headers, and solid lifters. Both however will run out of steam above 4500 or so as the ram tubes choke the air flow. The 1-2 shift at WOT with a letter car transmission will most often break the tires loose. They were built for the torque that the ram system deliver's. I worked with a supplier in NC (Cam Craft) to reproduce the camshafts from the original drawings. I ground in the 4 degrees on the 60-61's so you can upgrade the cam drive and still get the cam to come in when degreeing it. We have many members that drive their ram cars long distances without adding any fuel additives they adjust their timing as outlined in previous posts. Those that have installed different distributors have had to recurve them to prevent pinging as the factory letter car distributors have an advance curve tailored to the ram car. Also watch the amount of heat that passes into the ram base from the exhaust manifold tubes, a stuck heat riser on eaither side will burn out the ram base. Most of us restrict the flow using drilled welsh plugs and set our chokes on the light side on the long ram cars, the short rams have manual chokes so no carb heat is needed.
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