CAP: Keep or Delete? The Next One has it...

[The Goose]

67 and newer cars in Arizona do have to pass an emission test. Years ago I heard that Jan Brewer, a former Governor approved moving the year required up to I think 1976. Supposedly it was sent to the Feds for approval but that approval never happened. I guess I should start contacting some of our usless politicians in Washington and ask WTF is happening with it?

I asked this same question waaaaay back when and the answer I got was Az emissions law/requirements are based on the Air Quality? Act of 1967 and even though the Clean Air Act was a enacted few years earlier it’s the 1967 law/regulations that it’s based on. I was also told specific vehicle requirements are an average rather than engine specific. I think that’s why a hemi or 6bbl has more trouble passing than say a 318 or a 383. An early fix for wealthier folks was to register out of maricopa county. This led to an escalation game of maricopa license + out of maricopa plates = ticket. Then out of county proof, then short term work in county tags and of course now with cops cruising business parking lots looking for out of county plates at work with plate scanners. Many out of county coworkers that I knew received emissions violation fan mail from maricopa county. The whole system now is pretty crazy and broken.

 

[saforwardlook]

While I really know nothing of the OBD II system, the New York State system of annual inspection requires that most(?) of the operating codes will need the car to be driven after clearing the codes.

When my oldest son worked at the Ford store as a service writer, one of his duties was to drive customer's cars that had codes cleared. He had a route that he drove that worked out that was just enough to get the car through the NYS test, which included hooking the OBDII port to a state operated system.

Funny story... When the state first got the system up and running, a couple of the shops have had this happen. They'd hook the car up and suddenly get a phone call that went something like this "Is the owner of that car there?". "Yes...Why?" "This is the NY State Police, stall him a little if you can, we'll be right there". and the next thing you knew, the State Troopers were there to arrest the car owner. Seems the system alerted them to someone they were looking for.

I haven't heard one of those stories in a while, so I wonder if that is no longer true... It would seem to put everyone in the shop in harm's way if things went bad.

If it was ever true, it was because the smog check system alerted the police that a particular VIN was present at their shop for a smog check test. At least in California, the pass/fail data are transmitted electronically to a state agency that alerted the police electronically to the presence of the vehicle. There is nothing in the OBD system that is configured to do what was described in those accounts except it does contain the VIN of the vehicle in the system.

 

[The Goose]

I’ll be the first to admit California helped move everything towards cleaner vehicles I just wish they understood the law of diminishing returns. Eventually you get so little back it’s not worth the expense of trying. That’s where a breakthrough in technology should take the place of draconian regulation. In my industry diesel emissions have been drastically reduced but now we are in the spot where there is so little improvement vs cost it no longer makes sense. It’s very rare to see equipment blowing black soot and it’s now so abnormal it’s usually addressed very quickly.

I can justify this by the way the government sells carbon credits and allows dirty equipment to still be sold (mostly foreign stuff) with flex credits. If they REALLY cared about clean air this would be illegal and everyone would have to clean up their act with no way to buy their way out of compliance.

 

[Big_John]

If it was ever true, it was because the smog check system alerted the police that a particular VIN was present at their shop for a smog check test. At least in California, the pass/fail data are transmitted electronically to a state agency that alerted the police electronically to the presence of the vehicle. There is nothing in the OBD system that is configured to do what was described in those accounts except it does contain the VIN of the vehicle in the system.

Actually, I believe it's because they also enter the license plate number. For someone they are looking for, that plate number is always on any BOLO info that the cops, especially the Troopers, would alert on. Gotta remember we have cop cars with license plate reading capabilities and the cops will just drive around and the car will automatically pick up on any bad guy's plates, so it wouldn't be hard to include that in the inspection software.

Of course, the VIN is also tied to a license number...

Onondaga County Sheriff (county I live in), with the plate readers. Note salt on cars and pavement. This was a few years ago and most of the Sheriff cars are Ford crossovers now.

 

[The Goose]

Actually, I believe it's because they also enter the license plate number. For someone they are looking for, that plate number is always on any BOLO info that the cops, especially the Troopers, would alert on. Gotta remember we have cop cars with license plate reading capabilities and the cops will just drive around and the car will automatically pick up on any bad guy's plates, so it wouldn't be hard to include that in the inspection software.

Of course, the VIN is also tied to a license number...

Onondaga County Sheriff (county I live in), with the plate readers. Note salt on cars and pavement. This was a few years ago and most of the Sheriff cars are Ford crossovers now.

View attachment 487253

In my town they use readers to get the public works done. The Law ties suspended licenses to the registered number plate. They drive around scan cars and whamo - somebody’s going to be picking up trash and pulling weeds. The city does about 80% of yard work/clean up with community service workers.

 

[Rustyrodknocker]

In my town they use readers to get the public works done. The Law ties suspended licenses to the registered number plate. They drive around scan cars and whamo - somebody’s going to be picking up trash and pulling weeds. The city does about 80% of yard work/clean up with community service workers.

Can't see that going on much longer. I'm not sure we even still have that program. Thats how I worked off my tickets when I was a kid. Picking up the trash that blew away from the dump in the ball freezing cold. The one guy that worked out there would give you a ride and let you warm up in the truck once in a while.
Now there is a contingency that claims these types of programs are slavery.

 

[saforwardlook]

I’ll be the first to admit California helped move everything towards cleaner vehicles I just wish they understood the law of diminishing returns. Eventually you get so little back it’s not worth the expense of trying. That’s where a breakthrough in technology should take the place of draconian regulation. In my industry diesel emissions have been drastically reduced but now we are in the spot where there is so little improvement vs cost it no longer makes sense. It’s very rare to see equipment blowing black soot and it’s now so abnormal it’s usually addressed very quickly.

I can justify this by the way the government sells carbon credits and allows dirty equipment to still be sold (mostly foreign stuff) with flex credits. If they REALLY cared about clean air this would be illegal and everyone would have to clean up their act with no way to buy their way out of compliance.

The most recent emission regulations regarding HD diesels relate to reduction of NOx emissions not soot. The presence of HC and NOx in sunlight are what create smog and that is still an issue in the large population centers of California. So that is why there is the so-called Ad Blue stuff being sold in fueling stations and parts stores, etc.

Emission credits incentivize the purchase of Electric Vehicles or Fuel Cells (heavy duty in the future) so the State determined the trade off is worth it in the long run when/if we get to renewables to provide electricity instead of oil or gas.

 

[Davea Lux]

The most recent emission regulations regarding HD diesels relate to reduction of NOx emissions not soot. The presence of HC and NOx in sunlight are what create smog and that is still an issue in the large population centers of California. So that is why there is the so-called Ad Blue stuff being sold in fueling stations and parts stores, etc.

Emission credits incentivize the purchase of Electric Vehicles or Fuel Cells (heavy duty in the future) so the State determined the trade off is worth it in the long run when/if we get to renewables to provide electricity instead of oil or gas.

Ad Blue is a brand name, the correct generic term is DEF (Diesel Exhaust Fluid). A mixture of refined urea and water works in conjunction with the Vehicle SCR (Selective Catalytic Reduction) to burn off soot collected by a micro screen in the catalyst, Nitrogen Monoxide and Nitrogen Dioxide are reacted with the urea. The Nitrogen oxides are one of the components that create smog. A mixture of DEF and a small amount of diesel are injected into the SCR, this process burns up the soot and reduces the Nitrogen oxides to Nitrogen in conjunction with the platinum and other metals in the convertor. In the trucking industry, the SCR is widely referred to as a "Piss Burner" due to the presence of urea. There have been some maintainence issues with the system causing the catalyst to overheat the exhaust and burn out the tubing.

Dave

 

[The Goose]

The most recent emission regulations regarding HD diesels relate to reduction of NOx emissions not soot. The presence of HC and NOx in sunlight are what create smog and that is still an issue in the large population centers of California. So that is why there is the so-called Ad Blue stuff being sold in fueling stations and parts stores, etc.

Emission credits incentivize the purchase of Electric Vehicles or Fuel Cells (heavy duty in the future) so the State determined the trade off is worth it in the long run when/if we get to renewables to provide electricity instead of oil or gas.

LoL sorry if I oversimplified diesel emissions. I think we can agree that you can’t opacity test for HC or NOx. It is true nowadays that a smoking piece of equipment stands out like a sore thumb on a job site. I think we’ve done a good job getting there without taking handouts from the government. Other emissions issues we use datalink devices to email alerts like a non regen event or DEF manifold failure. The engines derate if these alerts are ignored, unlike a check engine light, most heavy equipment isn’t set up passive it will shut you down until you fix the problem if it’s emissions related.

I guess we’ll never see eye to eye on carbon credits but I’m talking heavy equipment and your talking passenger vehicles. Not really the same sport. They do spend my taxes on worse things than getting alt fuel vehicles into the food chain at a cheaper rate. So I can’t totally disagree with you on passenger vehicles.

 

[CBODY67]

Most on-road turbodiesels in lighter-duty pickups have the same "limp-in mode" when they run low on DEF. Of course, with warning lights to alert the driver of such, too.

 

[The Goose]

Most on-road turbodiesels in lighter-duty pickups have the same "limp-in mode" when they run low on DEF. Of course, with warning lights to alert the driver of such, too.

That’s true. But you can drive home in limp home mode. When a heavy derates you have a few more starts and then it won’t fire up again without a factory password. You also can’t really work with a derated engine so it’s basically out of service.

 

[Big_John]

@saforwardlook and @The Goose

Coincidences seem to happen.... and I got an email reminder from the state for the NYS inspection for my 300.

So... Off to a buddy's shop for the inspection. Today he had an early 60's Lincoln in the shop and a '68 Charger waiting outside, but I digress.

First order of business was the registration sticker on the windshield was scanned into New York's online system called NYVIP2. The only info I gave and that was because he didn't want to get in the car, was my mileage. We ran through the lights etc. and and he reported on the system that all passed. He printed out this form and put a new sticker on the windshield. $10 charge and I tossed a $20 on the counter and told "we're good".

Anyway, note the info that was pulled from the bar code on the registration sticker.

I always file this form at home, just 'cause.

When I had my 2010 Ford Ranger inspected a couple months ago, I also got a copy of the airbag recall, which Ford hasn't resolved yet, but that's another story.

 

[The Goose]

Glad you passed!!! Not having to go to testing has been a godsend to me.

Now once a year I go to the supermarket and renew my tags. In Az I spent about $40. $18 plus the fees, here I pay $171. This includes the black plate which I own but must rebuy every year for $50 and then the custom letters on the tag. So really I only pay about double cost of Az tags.

Is it worth it ?

HELL YES!

I just renewed my tags last week so I do feel your pain (kind of LoL).

 

[70bigblockdodge]

I must say Pennsylvania is a godsend with antique auto tags.
Permanent registration, one time fee good as long as you own the vehicle. No state safety inspection, which in Pa. involves taking your car apart measuring and reassembly.
Pa has been talking about not emission testing new cars till they go out of warranty. Which makes sense, why am I paying $60 dollars a year for a emissions test that is covered by the manufacturers warranty.
Hmmm let's see, mechanic welfare and state revenue.
Back to Gerry's question. If it actually works properly it is no disadvantage. I'm sure there is some lengthy procedure to check this. The down and dirty is it provides high vacuum advance on deceleration and cuts it back off at idle to improve complete combustion. Would be easy enough to check with vacuum guage Teed in at canister and be readable as you drive. Should get high vacuum signal on deceleration when normal spark advance port would have very little vacuum. Should return to zero when returned to regular idle.
It a free ride air cleaner-upper, nothing wrong with that. Everyone likes clean air.
However, as everyone knows or should know that retarded timing will make your engine blow clean exhaust and run bad. To hedge the CAP valves effectiveness the engine will have even worse timing specs than a normal car.
So my vote is a quick check to see if it is in fact operating then set the timing to 35°btdc at ~ 3500 rpm, initial will end up in the neighborhood of 12-15. As long as your not getting any starter kickbacks tighten it down and forget it.
If the valve test bad or inoperable, in the trash and just hook up vacuum advance as ma Mopar intended.

 

[Two 67's]

$60 for Emissions? I'm Not Charging Enough Then

 

[CBODY67]

In many cases, what is charged for "state inspections" is specified in state law. If the shops might charge more, they get whacked.

 

[70bigblockdodge]

$60 for Emissions? I'm Not Charging Enough Then

Yep $80 something for both. And it's not even a gift. POS still has to pass. Wife and kid's cars, mine will go to different place, no emissions and easier ride.