Cat’s Out Of The Bag, ‘65 300L Manual Trans, A/C and More

[haywire 440]

Engine block and components update:

The parts were successful separate and the 413 has been bored .030 over. The rest of the block looks good and this is not the final hot tanking or cleaning.

The crankshaft, though a little discolored because of moisture, is usable according to the shop. So good news so far.

The replacement parts are being sourced.

 

[haywire 440]

The heads are cleaned up and will have hardened seats installed.

The exhaust manifolds were soaked in a 9 to 1 solution of water and molasses for approximately a month now. As an experiment and because of a lack of a blasting cabinet. Here are the before pictures.

And after two weeks coming out of the tank for a power wash.

Finished pictures next post.

 

[Ross Wooldridge]

VERY nice!

 

[haywire 440]

Another two weeks and after just power washing.

Now the driveshaft was also just power washed at this time and here is the shape it is in.

A shop looked this over for me and it was an old school kind where the guy knew what it was. He grabbed it from me as I walked in the door and set it on the counter. He started wiggling, pulling and feeling the front joint. He proclaimed that it is surprising in good shape. He talked about not being able to get the required parts to fix them anymore but there were “expensive” replacements parts now. But he saw no need. The back u-joint would need to be changed.

Now the rust on the tub is an issue but kind of depends. He says that if you don’t beat it to death it should hold up. I asked about painting it and his reply was don’t be aggressive at all in sanding it. A scotch pad maybe but very light. So right now it in a pvc 4” tube with the molasses mix to dissolve the rust. We’ll see. The front joint is not soaking.

I am wondering about the top cap on that joint. Can that be removed to add grease in that cavity? I haven’t read the FSM yet. Just thinking of the top of my head.

The camshaft question I have been pondering is, do I reuse it. Well first the lifters that came out are showing the bottoms are concave. I believe that means they are not really good.

I sent an email to a company that according to the Chrysler 300 International group listing them as having the original ‘65 L cam specifications and can grind a new blank as to lead time and cost but haven’t received any reply, 2 weeks.

But surprisingly, again, after talking to the engine builder he called his supplier of odd and obsolete parts and informed them what was needed and they said “Yes” they had several 300L original spec camshafts in stock for a price of $135.

Today I sent the engine builder the spec profile for the original cam and asked him if that company can supply a profile for their replacement camshaft. We’ll see.

That’s it for now, other than I’m going to clean the exhaust manifolds a little more and apply Fluid Film to them and maybe use that on the driveshaft too.

 

[fury fan]

Any word from the engine builder on the CH on the pistons they found?

Here is a guy that did some progressive dyno testing on low-compression engines. He also did a 400-2 in a pickup truck.
He dispelled the myth that low-compression engines can't make power.

Although - we can't see what happens below 2500 rpm, which is where most of us spend most of our time.
Interestingly, the Summit K6400 is the 1st cam he uses. I wish he had tested the 6401 also.


Doing a little dyno testing on a low compression 440.

 

[haywire 440]

Any word from the engine builder on the CH on the pistons they found?

Here is a guy that did some progressive dyno testing on low-compression engines. He also did a 400-2 in a pickup truck.
He dispelled the myth that low-compression engines can't make power.

Although - we can't see what happens below 2500 rpm, which is where most of us spend most of our time.
Interestingly, the Summit K6400 is the 1st cam he uses. I wish he had tested the 6401 also.


Doing a little dyno testing on a low compression 440.

The information at the moment, from the builder, is a stock 10-1 compression ratio. I don’t believe the pistons arrived yet. The CH, is that the height of the piston in the cylinder? Maybe silly question but want to be on the same page. That is yet to be determined.

 

[Lefty71]

Compression height, or compresion distance, is the distance from the centerline of the pin to the top of the piston.
With all other variables known, deck height, rod length, stroke, head volume, head gasket thickness and compression height, you can mathmatically figure static compression and where piston lands in-the-hole.

 

[fury fan]

Here's a read, it is for a 440 so the compression ratio #s don't equate to a 413, but the CH and down-in-the-hole would be the same for any RB engine.
And you'll be using -516 closed-chamber heads, so that is different also.
WARNING ! "stock" 440 Piston Selection...

Here's the main takeaway for a 413:

Here is some handy information to that educational end:
1.) An un-milled "stock" 440 Engine Block.... requires a Piston Compression Distance spec of about 2.085" to reach "TDC".
6.76" Rod Length + 1.875"(1/2 Stroke length) + 2.085" height Piston = 10.720" 440 Block Height.

There are numerous seemingly-knowledgable folks that report that Chrysler's published CR ratings are a bit lower when virgin engines are uncorked and the down-hole measurements are taken. The math doesn't equal what was published.

For years many folks said an engine had to be built for ~9.5:1 and have .040-.050 quench distance (the distance from top of piston to mating face of the combustion chamber, which also includes the head gasket compressed thickness). This tight distance creates good turbulence and makes for nice power.

The guy I linked to in #105 showed dyno results that disproved that somewhat, in that lower-CR engines can still make power due to airflow.
What he did not show (as with 99% of dyno runs) was what happened to the power curve <3000 rpms. This is where a bigger-cammed/low-CR engine would likely be dissatisfying.
And in addition, he is reportedly quite skilled and the short block was nicely blueprinted, which surely helps.
What will happen to a 413HP that is stock but with low-CR truck pistons? I dunno.


I'm sure your builder will LOVE you getting internet advice, but this is an aspect of your engine that should be well-vetted to your satisfaction.
And if he found a source for 10:1 413 pistons, we shall shout it from the ramparts!

 

[haywire 440]

This is all great information that I’m understanding and will be quizzing the builder about. I’m trying to stay on top of this and with your advice & research it will surely help, @fury fan thanks.

 

[fury fan]

One other thing I forgot:
Chrysler used steel-shim head gaskets with a .020" compressed thickness.
Most all of the 'standard' gaskets nowadays are about .040" compressed.
That's another thing that lowers the CR.

Thin gaskets are getting very HTF and can be pricey.
This is the last 'cheap' one that I know of.
Mopar has an expensive one (if it's still available) and there might be something available in copper or MLS steel.

Mr. Gasket 1135G Mr. Gasket Head Gaskets | Summit Racing

 

[Ripinator]

Here's a read, it is for a 440 so the compression ratio #s don't equate to a 413, but the CH and down-in-the-hole would be the same for any RB engine.
And you'll be using -516 closed-chamber heads, so that is different also.
WARNING ! "stock" 440 Piston Selection...

Here's the main takeaway for a 413:


There are numerous seemingly-knowledgable folks that report that Chrysler's published CR ratings are a bit lower when virgin engines are uncorked and the down-hole measurements are taken. The math doesn't equal what was published.

For years many folks said an engine had to be built for ~9.5:1 and have .040-.050 quench distance (the distance from top of piston to mating face of the combustion chamber, which also includes the head gasket compressed thickness). This tight distance creates good turbulence and makes for nice power.

The guy I linked to in #105 showed dyno results that disproved that somewhat, in that lower-CR engines can still make power due to airflow.
What he did not show (as with 99% of dyno runs) was what happened to the power curve <3000 rpms. This is where a bigger-cammed/low-CR engine would likely be dissatisfying.
And in addition, he is reportedly quite skilled and the short block was nicely blueprinted, which surely helps.
What will happen to a 413HP that is stock but with low-CR truck pistons? I dunno.


I'm sure your builder will LOVE you getting internet advice, but this is an aspect of your engine that should be well-vetted to your satisfaction.
And if he found a source for 10:1 413 pistons, we shall shout it from the ramparts!

I read an article / message somewhere recently that talked about punching a 413 block out to 426 cu. in. This was done because the author claimed there was a wider choice of pistons available for that setup. Is this true?

 

[Lefty71]

punching a 413 block out to 426 cu. in. This was done because the author claimed there was a wider choice of pistons available for that setup. Is this true?

To my knowledge, this is very much not true. You can get custom pistons made from a good manufacturer for a whole lot of money for either motor. I have a thousand dollar set of 413 pistons right here, but as far as off-the-shelf goes, 426 wedge is just as obsolete as 413 is. I'm always on the hunt as I'm sure others are, for good NOS and unused aftermarket forged 413 and 426 pistons. big difference between now and a short time ago i'm afraid.

 

[haywire 440]

To my knowledge, this is very much not true. You can get custom pistons made from a good manufacturer for a whole lot of money for either motor. I have a thousand dollar set of 413 pistons right here, but as far as off-the-shelf goes, 426 wedge is just as obsolete as 413 is. I'm always on the hunt as I'm sure others are, for good NOS and unused aftermarket forged 413 and 426 pistons. big difference between now and a short time ago i'm afraid.

More good discussion on this issue with @Ripinator bringing up the larger pistons. I’m seeing past, years ago, internet posts by you @Lefty71 on this subject and it’s all darn interesting. I hope I’m not in a pickle!

I did put a call into the builder but nothing back so far.

Good thing I’m understanding more about DCH and camshaft intake valve closing relationship for torque & power.

Maybe I’ll just go with a blower to utilize the low compression ratio (static)

 

[haywire 440]

The 413 engine rebuild is progressing as planned and I’ll get the specifics out later.

In the meantime, I decided to have the stock Borg and Beck clutch rebuilt by Kentucky Clutch. I sent this plate and disk to them last Friday.

On Monday I received a call from them letting me know it arrived and asked what level of performance I was looking for. I told them stock.

I was told it would be finished later that day so payment was complete. It was $165 plus $35 for UPS shipping.
Today, Wednesday, my clutch arrived back and man I was surprised. Nicely surprised!

It was a Super job, with a friction plate lining from Mexico, a new looking pressure plate, a new throw out bearing, a thrust bearing and an alignment tool. I didn’t even know all that came together.

It cost $35 to send it to them but I think it was worth it because these B&B clutch packages are unavailable now.
So one more item is really for the installation.

 

[Ross Wooldridge]

Very nice!

 

[fury fan]

I like that they gave you the N1463 bearing for the superceded N1463 bearing.

 

[MoparapoM]

That is impressive! Be interested to see how it feels lugging the 'Mighty L' around?

B

 

[fury fan]

On your mention that hte B&B clutches are non-avail, I went scouting to get a spare for my 65 SF (believe I put a diaphragm style in there years ago).
Found a bunch of ~ $400 hi-perf clutches on Summit, Jegs, etc.
Found a $125 stock replacement on Rock Auto, so I jumped on it.

It arrived with a made-in-china sticker on it.
How/why did China repro a B&B clutch???

 

[haywire 440]

On your mention that hte B&B clutches are non-avail, I went scouting to get a spare for my 65 SF (believe I put a diaphragm style in there years ago).
Found a bunch of ~ $400 hi-perf clutches on Summit, Jegs, etc.
Found a $125 stock replacement on Rock Auto, so I jumped on it.

It arrived with a made-in-china sticker on it.
How/why did China repro a B&B clutch???

Maybe the Chinese read the posts about folks not liking the diaphragm style pressure plates.

I think Rock Auto were out of stock when I looked.

Does it look new or reconditioned?

 

[Snotty]

On your mention that hte B&B clutches

Oh, another person who suffers frim my disorder - self-taught typist!! Can't tell you how many times I type hte!